The Interview: Putting Your Best Foot Forward

So you got the interview! When was the last time you had an interview? Mike Lunney walks us through the process of researching for an interview, rehearsing for an interview (yes, rehearsing!), and then communicating before, during, and after the interview. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Uh uh Mr. Lunny, sir.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Yeah. Yeah. What do you want?

SPEAKER_02 0:05

That's the wrong one. You're being you have a job opening. Oh, yep. I was gonna ask you for an interview, but I may reconcile. Oh, yep.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Do it again, and I'm getting I've got a better answer for you. This big right. This would be right. So I'm here for the interview. Go for it. All right. Reset Mr. Lenny's Mr.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Lenny, sir. Mr. Lenny, sir. I'm here for a job interview.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Um, who are you? And I don't believe I called you. You need to know me. Trust me. Oh my God. Yeah, we're gonna do a podcast today on. I'm doing great. We're gonna talk about interview thoughts. You know, it's uh, you know, you're thoughts. Yeah, we're gonna do interviews. Um, sometimes, and it's not just showing up like Derek did at my doorstep going, hey, you want me to be your van director? No, that's it's part of it is you know, you got to show up. In fact, I'll tell you a quick little story. My first job ever as a 16-year-old was working at Ken's Pizza in Iowa Park, Texas. And they were building, they were building the store. And I told my dad, said, Hey, I want to work there. And because it's like two blocks from my house. And he goes, Well, just go down there. So, well, they're still building it. And this is my dad's advice, and it worked. He goes, just show up and start picking up bricks and cleaning up stuff or whatever. And it was funny because I did that for a week in the summer. It's like for a whole week, like eight hours a day. I just showed up and I would pick up stuff, and pretty after the second day, people would tell me to do stuff. Hey, hey, Lonny, get over here. We we've never kidded. I would, yeah. And on Friday, they paid in cash. And so they're going down the line. And the guy who's the construction guy, he gets to me and he goes, Who are you? I go, I'm just a person who wants to work here. And he goes, You got to be kidding me. So you've you've not been interviewed, you've not been hired. So this is OSHA would go all over us. He goes, Well, I'm sorry, I just thought there was a job to do. And he goes, No, no, no, let's let's and he looked at all the other guys and goes, Is this kid knows what he is he good at what he's doing? He says, Well, he's not really good with tools, but he he does what he's told. He goes, All right, you're hired. Here, Philip. OSHA's not going to come, you know, get us. But then I ended up working at that place when it opened up. I applied to be a cook. And I've I cooked pizza for six years through high school and all the way through college, and it paid for my college degree, you know. So sometimes it is just showing up, but uh, I would not advise that in today's environment, just show up at a school that has high security and just force your way into the admin office for an interview. Um, be careful. Okay. So here's my interview thoughts, Mr. Derek. Before the interview, let's go. Research the school district and the program, everything from numbers to ratings, not just ratings of bands, but ratings of the school, town rivals, athletic records, community involvement, campus improvement reports, TAPR reports, et cetera. Everything you can get your hands on. This will paint a more accurate picture of what you're walking into and allow you to speak to the overall picture and how your employment, how you would fit into their particular school system. And uh it gives you other things to talk about other than uh alternate clarinet fingerings for C sharp, you know, things of that nature. So they really like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Your your volleyball team won state about three years ago. I remember that. I didn't remember that. I looked it up, you know, or your basketball team is a you have traditionally basketball is your sport here at this school. Right. Or football is your sport, or one act plays are just incredible at this place. Uh it doesn't have to be the band's the most incredible thing on the face of the earth, but it's you can use those as an end to go, you know, do you get great? Yeah, I would ask the principal or admin, do you get great uh satisfaction seeing that volleyball team get that gold medal? What are they gonna say? Yeah. So I think there's some things we can do within your program where I can help out the students to where we can go that direction. So the band can be just as good as anything else at your school, I believe. So and I'm willing to do the work to get that done. Okay. So just kind of an overall thing. Do your research, man. Do your research. Um, number two, plan in advance what you will wear. I know that sounds really stupid, but you know, plan in advance what you'll send it to the cleaners if necessary to look your very best. Dress conservatively and professionally. Now, there comes a point in our profession that a lot of interviews and wave two happen in the summer. And uh, and I would always tell them, Sita, I'm gonna be in shorts and a t-shirt and tennis shoes because I'm cleaning the band hall. Um, so please don't feel the need to dress up. But I'll tell you this if they showed up in a coat and tie, regardless of what I said, it did make an impression.

unknown 5:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

I did not count that against other people because I told them what I expected them to wear, you know. But there's something to be said about showing up with a tie or showing up with a nice dress or whatever, you know, whatever you look best in, you know. So, you know, make sure that you look professional. That it's kind of like or go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

I want to say this about that. We do, we, we are in a world of creatives, and I get that, but this probably isn't an interview, isn't the time for your wardrobe to reflect your creative nature.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Right. Unless you're a color guard applicant.

unknown 5:40

No.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

But yeah, you're absolutely right. I like the I liken it when I talk to young directors. It's like when I go would look to buy a house. If I go into that house, I don't want to see Derek Killum's pictures everywhere. I don't want to see all his heirlooms and all his little things of things he's done. I want to be able to picture myself in that house. So I want all the personal stuff out of the way. So I hate to say this, but the way you dress in an interview should be they should be able to look at you and go, that looks like our next band director.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

I agree with that. That's a great way to say that. I was going to say, don't make your wardrobe a distraction. Eliminate distractions.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah, yeah, if at all possible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

It's a you know, you don't want to make somebody, I I can't get past what you're wearing to hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, yeah. And just that comes back to knowing where you're interviewing at, too. You know, if you're interviewing as the head director at a 6A high school in a state finalist band, I'm pretty sure coat and tie and a really nice coat and tie is expected, or a really nice dress suit for a female, or a very nice conservative uh outfit is what's going to be expected. If you're at a going to a job that's had fourth and fifth division bands, and you know, part of your job is going to be to babysit the ag kids during second period, maybe not so much. Know what you're getting into, you know. And it's okay to ask that question for you people who are listening. It's okay to ask the person who calls the interview, um, what what should I wear to this interview? Who will be in the room? That's a good question, isn't it? Will it be the superintendent, the principal, me? And uh, because when I interviewed at one gig, which was a great gig, by the way, there was the principal, the school board president, the superintendent, the assistant superintendent, the band booster president, and the student president of the band was in the interview. Oh, wow. And I'm glad I asked before I went to the interview because they told, oh yeah, these people will be here. Because it kind of changed how I was gonna give my answers because I knew that I was gonna be talking to a student, a band booster and so forth. Okay. Um, so you know, just make sure to know what you're getting into in that manner. Um, make sure this sounds like really OCD, but I think it's important in a way. Clean your car so there's no chance that you walk in with a grease spot on your pants or shirt or blouse from a door jam, you know. Plus, don't you have a little more confidence when your car is clean? Or is it just me? I get it. If if I if I take time the day before to wash all the way down to the door jams and make sure that everything's polished and pretty and I fill it up and check the oil, and then I drive my two hours to get to my interview. Maybe it's just me, but I feel better than if I show up and the back window's missing because it got knocked out by my son. Whatever. You know, I don't just just make sure that you're ready and make sure that there's not a chance for that. Um, make additional copies of job documentation that you've already submitted. And in my notes, this is in bold, and bring them with you. Resumes, cover letters, letters of recommendation. Make them in packets and place those packets on the desk in front of you, facing the person who's interviewing you, and just mention that say, I made extra copies of everything just in case you need it. If you don't need it, I'll take it with me when I leave. You'd be surprised or maybe not so surprised. Sometimes that helps because there's other people in the interview process that have not seen everything so far. They might have gotten in an email, but then they say, Oh, oh crap, that new band director guy's coming at 10 o'clock. I'm supposed to be in the interview. I'm the assistant principal. They show up. When you have that packet and they can reach over and pick up that packet and kind of thumb through it as they're talking to you. Right. Um, bring a laptop if possible so you're controlled and comfortable technology functioning if you're doing a PowerPoint. Those have been done in interviews. They'll flip their computer around and say, How I wanted you to see this little video I did because I can do show reveal videos for you. Here's one I did for this school. So just make sure bring your own laptop. If you're going to do any technology stuff, bring your own stuff because don't trust what the school has because there's firewalls and there's internet connections and all that kind of stuff. So be ready for that. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Hey, totally off topic. Really enjoyed the Sky Riders Reveal video. That was cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

That was a good video. Yeah. And I've I forget, I wish I could give credit to who did that. It was a an alumni who works for a video production agency. And so we've really leaned heavy on our alumni. You know, there's a lot of uh work in kind, is that what it's called? You know, where they'll do a lot of work and they'll do it for free. You know, a lot of us are doing that, you know. But yeah, that wasn't a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Looks like a cool show, man.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

It is. And we've got 102 kids under contract, which was our goal to get 102. We've reached our goal. There's a lot of open class cores that would love to have more than 70 kids. And we had to turn away like 30 kids, you know. So next year we'll be full open class and we'll go to 130, 140. And uh it's working. But yeah, thank you for saying that. You know, we've I've always got to mention Skyrider somewhere in there, so I appreciate you doing that for me. Okay, it's kind of like my obsession, even with my Skyrider mug. If you got YouTube, you know, here we come. My overly priced Skyrider Yeti Cup. Um, on arrival, be prepared to surrender your license at check-in to the campus for security purposes. The days of pounding on the band hall door to get in are gone. You know, make sure you ask the person, and then they'll probably tell you. But if they don't say anything, you need to ask as the one coming in, say, what is your process for me entering your campus? Right. And some campuses. Yeah, that we're building a new band hall, and just Mr. So-and-so is gonna be back there with us. So he's the security guy. So just walk to the back of the building and uh and talk to him first, or the secretary will be there and you're gonna surrender your license at the front. Or you know, they drop it in the little machine and they make sure things, you know, that kind of stuff. So be ready for that procedure because we're here to protect our kids. And I know it's a pain. I mean, I've done clinics before. This is off the topic of interviews, but I thought it was interesting. I was in Alpine, Texas. Uh great band program. And I love that town. But the the sheriff pulled up because I looked unusual to him. He'd never seen me before. And he's a stranger danger. Yeah, he pulls up and he goes, What are you doing? Because the band was on like a water break. And I go, Well, I'm here to work the band. Oh, so Mr. Wilson invited you in. Yeah, yeah, Mr. Wilson did. So he said, Oh, okay. So I used to play trumpet in the band. Okay, yeah, very cool, very cool. But you know, to the point of when they saw someone different walking around, I I've walked up and a guy in a golf cart has caught me in the parking lot and given me a ride to the front and said, Why are you here? I'm here to work with the band. Get in my golf cart, please. I'll take you to the front. They don't want people just wandering around their parking lot. Um, so I think that's great. I think it's I respect.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

I will tell you, Mike, as the interviewer, it always impresses me to see that you followed protocol when you get to me.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

So if if I'm sitting there and you've got your visitor's badge on, I can tell that you went through the channels and you did what we expected. And I can already mentally say this guy is not gonna go rogue on us.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah. You can't guarantee, but at least he follows the first set of rules. Right. Which is a good indication for the future. Um, this is a really important one that I think a lot of directors, when they interview, fall short on. Smile and interact with the office manager or the campus secretary. That individual will be asked how your demeanor was while you were waiting. Don't go in and uh if they go, who are you? Don't you know who I am? Right. Did the director not speak with you first? I'll have an interview at 10 o'clock. So, oh no, no. No. Yeah. So uh, oh no, no, my name's Mike Lenny. I'm here for an interview. So uh I'm not in any kind of hurry. So I'm just gonna sit over here to the side and I'm just gonna, whatever time works well, you know, and then you know, if if if time, if it's appropriate for a little bit of small talk, then maybe a little bit of small talk, read the room carefully. They might be uh in the weeds right now with you know, scheduling or something. Uh read the room carefully. You know, if your job's to get the heck out of the way and stand to the side, do it. If your job's to they seem kind of bored because they have to be up there at 10 o'clock that morning, then maybe a little bit of small talk. We in admin don't make our office managers angry by hiring someone who is not nice. You wouldn't like our office managers when they're angry. They run the school, they have more power than the superintendent. Okay. And this next one, I love this because I've seen this so I've seen this in an interview. And I've got my phone here because we're all, you know, our brains are like, you know, whatever. But you know, I've been in an interview process when a phone is buzzed and I'm talking to the person and they'll literally get their phone out and they'll start looking at their phone in the interview. And I'm thinking, in my mind, I sure hope someone died. Because there's nothing on that phone besides someone dying that'd be important enough to interrupt this interview because I'm not going to answer my phone either. Because my phone is put up in the desk during an interview. Okay. So if they want me, they come bang on the door and say, this has happened. Okay. Because this will give you an initial snapshot of climate and culture if you are watching carefully. And this also applies to that front office, Derek. And that office manager, that campus secretary, you sit to the side. Um, it's okay to read through your papers, but I would under no circumstances get my phone out and start checking Facebook or my emails because it makes it seem like I'm really too busy for this interview. Your best thing to do, in my humble opinion, sit in the dang chair and wait. With a happy face. With a happy face, with a not resting bitch face, but with a happy face.

unknown 15:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

You know, just be pleasant and just be present, be where your feet are. Um, if you pick up your phone, your mind's going to other places immediately, isn't it? Okay. So just be careful of that because we're so used to it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Um well, I wouldn't even offer this, Mike. So many places now are zero tolerance for phone. I mean, you're not supposed to have your phone out on campus if you work there or you're a student there.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

So why are you sitting there flaunting it? Be, you know, be cognizant of the fact that we're not supposed to be on our phone.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Especially if you're interviewing in late May and school's still going on. You're sitting in the office checking your emails on your phone while students are walking through and the campus secretary can't check her social media or his social media. Right. Okay. Um, so keep all that in mind. Um, these are just old man opinions, okay, on that. Um, this one is definitely an old man opinion because my father taught me this. When they come to get you, shake hands in a standing position and look them in the eyes. Some people are very, very critical of a weak handshake or an overly strong handshake. I know that sounds silly in today's environment, you know, but it's true. You know, it's it it acknowledges, and my mom taught me this, said your heart faces who you care about. So if you if you just kind of have your body turned away from them and you're oh yeah, yeah, I'm almost ready in a minute. Let me get this stuff out of my briefcase. No, you turn around, you face your heart to that person, and you stand up and you reach out and you give a handshake and you look them in the eye and said, I'm so excited to be here today. I've been looking forward to this interview for days and days and days, and let them speak.

unknown 17:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Give leading questions in the interview.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

I totally agree with you on the handshake thing, too, because A, whether I like it or not, a weak handshake makes me go, What was that?

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

But even more so, too firm. You know, I have a class ring that I wear and I have married. It hurts.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

And I remember that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Makes them feel like they're dealing with that bad salesman, doesn't it? You know, there's I'm going to show you how I can do this. Okay. And just some once you finally get yourself in the office, some general questions, be prepared to answer. One is the uh, I call it the elevator question. That's the you've got your answer, it has to be um quick enough that if you got on an elevator with someone and they asked what you did for a living, you could explain to them who you are and what you did if you had to within the time the elevator got to that wherever it was going to.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

You know, it's it's got to be I've never thought of that.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

You can't just ramble on and on about it because they'll ask you, tell us about yourself. And if they do that, you don't go, My name is Michael Anthony Lenny. My social security is blah, blah, blah, blah. I was born in Fairborne, Ohio at Wright Patterson Air Force. I'm gonna say, and they're going, Oh my god. And again, I was line leader in fifth and as a five-year-old four times. Four times I was line leader.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

You know, it's like Captain of the School Color Guard.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

No, but what this does, um, I hate to say it this the quiet part out loud, Derek. So if if if anybody's listening that's an attorney, please uh turn off this podcast at this moment. This is your opportunity to share whatever secrets you want to share. Things they cannot ask about when they say tell us about yourself. If you want to discuss with them that you're a deacon at the church, that's when you can do it. If you want to tell them uh that you've been married a certain amount of years, that's when you can do that. If you want to tell them how many kids you have, that's when you can do that. If you want to, whatever you want, the the secrets, I hate to say secrets, but the goal is to ask leading questions for them to say, tell me more. Don't give them so much that they're like, oh God, I wish you'd just shut the hell up. Next got another interview at 11 and this guy's going and going. Just tell them something. Said, yeah, we we had a band at state marching uh four times in a row. And that leaves the just leave that blank spot. And they'll go, well, why don't you tell us about that? What what years were those?

SPEAKER_02 20:08

You know, instead of head up. Yeah. Yeah, instead of going, how did you accomplish that? I guess is what Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

So let them ask leading questions. Okay. Um, don't spend too much time talking about yourself. Tell them what you can do for them in the introduction. I can help student performers achieve at the highest level of their ability, both as an individual and a team. That's not saying I'm a great band director, but I feel my wheelhouse is to help performers achieve at a higher level. That's a lot better than saying I'm the man to get your band to state marching. You know, that's it's that's kind of that's an empty promise. That's an empty promise. Offer a breakthrough in regard to what is needed to grow the band. It makes you appear unique. You know, if they they might mention, said, I've I've looked back at your scores and it wasn't quite what I thought you probably should be making. But then also notice that, you know, your band hovers around 20, 25 kids. I just want you to know that in my wheelhouse, every program I've ever gone to, whether it got better or worse in scoring, it always got bigger. That's a selling point. It always got bigger. Said I'm going to provide enough social opportunity where kids feel like they have a place to be, because not every kid's going to be an athlete. Not every kid's going to be a matholite. Not every kid's going to be a one-ac to play kid. Now, some kids are just banned kids. And I want it to be cross-cultural with the whole school, but I want a place where these kids can feel safe. And good admin knows the better the fine arts are in a school district, the higher the test scores are.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

That's a given. That's that's that's a fact. Okay. Uh regardless of whether it's the chicken or the egg, I don't know. But it is the fact that if you find a high performing school on testing and ratings, um, you're going to find good fine arts, whether it be choir, orchestra, Band, whatever the deal is. Okay. Present yourself as a mission driving instead of career driven. Does that make sense? My mission is to do this, this, this, and this, and this. It's not, I want my career to get better because of this. It's now about the more about the is it.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Would you say it's more about present the why of what you are and what you do, as opposed to here's my my specific career goal points?

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yes. That's exactly. That's it in a nutshell. You're exactly right. And present your strength that will allow the all this previous stuff to happen. What is your strength that has makes that happen? You can tell them, said, I work really hard as an individual musician, trying to make myself better at my craft. I feel like I'm a really strong communicator, both in written and spoken. Um, I feel like I present all the things to my admin that they need to keep them in the loop so that you'll never be blindsided by something. So those are the strengths I think I can bring to the table as a band director. Notice I didn't say I know 14 alternate fingerings on bassoon.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Unless they're a fine arts director, they might be interested in that little snippet. But other than that, they could care less about how do you play a clarinet. They want to know how are you going to make the band a better place to be so you can do your job of teaching clarinet, and I can do my job of managing the school system.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Right. No offense to ex-coach administrators, but alternate fingers are just white noise. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean much.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

And they're not going to ask you that question. Fine arts coordinator might. So be prepared for that as well. Okay. Um, another really uh common one, why are you interested in this job? Make sure you've done your homework. They talk about the good things you've noticed in your research, and now how maybe you could be part of the success and the growth of the program, how it's exciting to you. It's a good time to mention your love of helping kids to be successful, how exciting, how your values seem to align well with theirs. Things that you don't really say in a cover letter, but you can say it in person. You can say, I just, I just know this community. Let's say Fredericksburg, Texas. That's that's a band town, isn't it? You know. So if I was applying for a job in Fredericksburg with Brian Hekomovich, I would make sure to tell him that uh, I just really feel like my values of what I think a band program should be align perfectly with yours because we just think alike and we both know that this is a band town. This is a good old German band town. Umpa, umpa. Let's go. You know what I mean? So that we know how this works. And so, you know, those are things you can say in person. You can't really write that into a cover letter. Okay. Right. So that gives you an idea to do that. And this is a really bold one that they'll they'll tend to ask: what is your philosophy of education? Answer how you want here, but be prepared with an answer and some examples. Don't just go, my philosophy of education is have them sit down, shut up, and that'll make them a better band. You know, that's not a really great philosophy of education. That's a logistical means of education, I suppose. A textbook answer with no thought or examples of you putting in it into practice means nothing. So here we are back to chat GPT and AI. Don't rattle off some kind of thing. This is why at some level of experience working with kids is so important. We want your philosophy. What when you go into bandwidth, what is your philosophy?

SPEAKER_02 25:32

This is something you really have to think about because it's almost like a mission statement. You have to stop. You have to figure out who you are, why you do what you do, and what you think is the best way to accomplish that. And put that in. You've already said it, but you can sniff out somebody who just googled somebody else's response to that. And just has not personal enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

You know, it's like great.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

But it's just like cleaning your car. You'll feel more confident when you can stop and go, This is why I teach the way I do, and this is the goal of what I'm trying to accomplish with my my education. This is how I educate people, and here's why.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

It's it's much more genuine than you know, what do they call them? All these big super long words that most people are going, I'm not sure you use that word correctly. Or that doesn't even make sense in that statement.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah. If you're uh if the person interviewing you feels the need to pick up a dictionary, we're in trouble. You know what I mean? Keep it simple, keep it simple. And something else, just a little snippet to throw in there in the midst of all this stuff. And I don't do this really well on my podcast because we just kind of plow through stuff because people are busy.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Glossover, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

You know, uh, we just kind of go to the next topic. But when they ask you a question, pause. Think about the question. It's gonna seem like an hour and a half in your mind. It's only about five seconds, but it's just enough to make them reset their brain. It's just enough for you to reset your brain because if they ask you what's your philosophy of education, and you immediately go, well, in my opinion, this is what we need to do. They don't want that kind of energy. Trust me. They don't they want someone to sit for a second and go, my philosophy of education. Let me tell you what I'm thinking. This is how I approach my rehearsal each day. The pause says everything. Just like in a good jazz solo, it's the distance between the notes sometimes that's more important than the notes themselves. You know, that little tiny pause and that little kind tiny moment shows them that you're actively thinking through this and not just giving a, like I said, a soliloquy from Hamlet.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

You know, you know, and regardless of my daily lesson plan, my overarching goal or my overarching purpose in teaching this, you know what I mean? It's yeah, I don't think they want a five-day lesson plan from you.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

No, and what they want to hear is something of this nature. And this is what I I used as an example. Well, I just passed out a march to the kids. We went through our warm-up, everything's fine, roll is checked, uh, kids are all in their seats, we're paying attention. The march is way too hard for them. So now I've got a choice, don't I? If my choice is to shove this at them and make sure that they get as much as I can in this period, or if my philosophy of education is I need to meet the kids where they're at, I need to maybe play just the first 16 measures of the march at 4-4 time as a corral. And just say, let's just do this and listen to the chord changes. In a way, pretend like that was your lesson plan. Say this is what I was planning on doing. It's a little, it's a white lie because you were planning on reading the march and considering that for UIL, but now you've already decided this is really kind of out of our league. And I didn't realize that coming in. So we're gonna do this with it, and this is what we got from it. Now let's work on tuning that final chord before the first strain. Okay, everybody put that back in your folder. Let's get out this other piece. And then you immediately shift because your philosophy is you want the kids to leave rehearsal feeling like they've accomplished something instead of leaving rehearsal. You know, beating shall continue till right notes appear in the march. You know what I mean? It's uh and the some directors approach it that way, said, uh, I don't care what you're thinking, we're gonna waterboard you with this Susa March and you're gonna play it. And this is just what it's gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

One thing our friend Anthony Gibson said in in one of our episodes, it's always stuck with me, lead the end of your rehearsal should be a positive.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah. Whatever you can do to make the, and that's a good philosophy. Whatever you do in your last 10 seconds of your rehearsal, make it be positive. Even if you have to make up something, even it's like just play the stinger of the march. Now hold it out. Let's play that really in tune. Let's balance that. Man, that's a gorgeous sound.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Great sound. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

All right, everybody, let's put our stuff up. See y'all tomorrow. Instead of crash and burn, crash and burn, crash and burn. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. Well, kids, that really sucked. Um, I'll see y'all tomorrow. See you tomorrow. And it's it's so simple to do, but some directors uh they they gain such strength in their heart by belittling the kids in front of them musically. I'm I know more than you know, and I've just proven to you that I know more than you know. So go to second period now. And what a dangerous road to go down, okay. And here's a biggie, Derek, because to the admin that you're interviewing with, not as much maybe the fine arts director types, um, but to if it's a principal or especially an assistant principal, how do you deal with and address discipline issues? Because there will be discipline issues. Okay. Again, answer how you would like. I would recommend including that it is critical to classroom management and the fewer discipline issues that expectations and procedures are communicated to the kids on day one. We tell them what's expected. We list what's expected. We have a certain list of five steps written on the board or written on a bulletin board, big letters where they can see it every day and they know what those expectations are. Does it mean they're gonna follow them? No, it doesn't mean they're gonna follow them. But think about it driving your car. Can you imagine getting pulled over by the DPS and they go, you were speeding? Well, there wasn't a speed limit sign. We know. There's no speed limit sign, but it's it's 60 right here. You were going 75, but it doesn't say 60. Well, that's your problem. Doesn't matter. That's your problem. You're in trouble now. Yeah, and that's how the kids feel, you know. So not that everything will be bright and shiny and everybody will be happy, but you know what? Most people, if they know they did not meet the expectations, they will, in a way, expect the consequence. Okay. Have an organized, structured class which kids know what to expect, and that'll help eliminate it. Make sure your admin knows that you will pass this plan to them for affirmation. Does that make sense? We don't. Worst thing you can do to a principal is blindside them. Where it's like, no, no, my expectation was they had to be at every rehearsal or they lose their spot in the show. And they missed the 15th rehearsal. So now they just lost their spot in the show the week before contest. And the principal's going, What? Yeah, I've never seen that in a handbook, but make sure that they have all that. Explain the finer points of it, you know, and that'd be a ridiculous expectation, by the way. But, you know, if that is your expectation, just make sure everybody knows, you know, before you get into it. Um, and I love this one because I this works wonders if you're going to interview. Wherever possible, you will try to keep your discipline issues in your office before you refer it to an assistant principal. That doesn't mean that you can't do that. You can't go to an assistant principal. Um, but you know, and before you lay down, and tell them this too, this will make them feel so much better. Trust me on this. Tell them said before I lay down the law of something, not just like, you know, I'm gonna move you down in the section or I'm gonna move your spot on the field, but am I gonna kick you out of band because you pulled a knife and banned? And I tried to keep that in my office. Oh my God, we're all in trouble now. So anytime it's an important disciplinary issue, mid-level or higher, don't lay down the law to that kid until you go to the admin and go, this is what happened. This was my expectation, this is how it was spelled out. I need to know, are you gonna support me on this? Or do you think I'm wrong? I would rather have that conversation without the parent in front of us. You know, and how does Mr. Lenny know this?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Ask me how I know.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Ask me how I know. You know, uh, it's uh because I did, I was gonna kick a kid out of band and I told him I'm I'm gonna get you out of band. And then the admin came to me and said, No, you're not. We've got nowhere to put that kid. They're gonna be in band. Talk about an embarrassing moment for me, you know. So I learned my lesson the hard way. So learn from my mistake. Okay. Another one they like to ask if I walked into your classroom, what would I see? I'd recommend procedures on, you know, on the board, students engaged in activities, you want appropriate feedback. However, you want to approach that. Uh, humor and lesson delivery is critical. Kids learn with a higher degree of retention when there's humor associated with the material. There's nothing wrong with a couple of really stupid dad jokes, you know. I personally want to see a back and forth with the kids in instruction and questioning. It's not like I'm a fire hydrant spewing out information like projectile vomit. You know what I mean? Of this is this is what you're supposed to learn in band. You learn a lot by going, I don't like musically how this is happening at Measure 46. What should we do?

unknown 35:24

What should we do?

SPEAKER_00 35:25

The first time you do that, oh my gosh, they look at you like the preacher just ask us a question and we're not sure if we can answer or not. Yes, there's there's no wrong answer to that question. Answer. You know, um I would love to see the director student back and forth in the site reading room when I do compliance as an appliance official. It's interesting to hear the students and the director, this director's not just belaboring the point. They get to a spot and they'll say, on this vermotto, would you like it better if I cut off and count to four to bring you back in? Or it'd be better to cut off and just give the downbeat? And just ask the kids and they'll tell you real quick, they'll go, give us four counts. You got it. You know, there's no judges in the room at that time to see what you're doing, just me as a compliance official. And I have no uh meaning to the writings or the evaluation at all. My job is just to make sure all the rules are followed. That's all. I'm just a referee.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Okay. Okay. So I'm gonna call a timeout real quick. This is me being honest with you. And I didn't know I must not know how sight reading works anymore. I thought the judges were in the whole time. Kids didn't say a word. The director talked through it, talked through it, talked through it, and then we played it. That they aren't in there for the first part anymore.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

No. Um, so they have an additional person that's hired and paid as if they were a judge, an evaluator. And so I do this for different regions. And uh basically, the as the evaluation panel, as the judges are doing their final things on their laptops, the next band will come in. I'll get the director, I'll guide them over to where the uh three-minute score study is. I got three minutes to study the score. I'll start the timer. But before I do that, I'll ask them have you ever played this piece before? Has a band ever rehearsed this piece? I'll reiterate according to my notes, you're a three A non-varsity band or a three A or four A subnonvarsity band. Um, is this correct? Yes. Okay, you will be reading level three, and here's the level three piece, and I hand them the score. Then I go to the band, get them settled in, I go through the rules with them. Meanwhile, the judges finish the laptop and they just they leave. So then the judge has their allotted amount of time and they can do anything they want to besides playing an instrument. They can't pick up a horn, they can't play on a piano, um, but they can sing, they can count, they can tap. The kids can do it. Sometimes kids get into little uh little pods with their section leaders, and the section leaders go over the music with them, and then they come back, or they can they just play through it seven times in a row. Every director does it a little bit different, but there's no judges in there. And I think it's a good way of doing it because in the past, that's great. Well, you were not allowed to judge them on their instructional period. But did we? How could we not? Did we? Yeah, because you can't, you knew better than to write it on the page, but if you just saw a total train wreck of an instruction, that makes it really hard to have an open mind when they start to play. But now you come in and they've after they finish, like I text in a group text to the judges now. And then they come to the door and the judge, the director finishes, and then I bring in the judges and I say, band, I'd like to introduce you to our evaluators. This is Derek Killum from Midland. This is so-and-so from Odessa. Um, they're here, they've had great bands in UIL. They're here to evaluate your performance today. Evaluators, I'd like to introduce you to the Owl Park Hawk band. They're a class 3A varsity ensemble today. And then I look at the director and I go, You may play a unison note or a unison chord at your discretion, and you may begin whenever you're ready. And I walk off. And then they play and the judges judge evaluate what was just played. I think it's a better process. Is there ever going to be a perfect process in sight reading? No, I think it's a better process. But it's kind of chasing a rabbit, but I think maybe out of his whole potato.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

No, but I appreciate that. I yeah, you know, my experience, that's how old I am. That was the scariest part of concert and sight reading contest.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

You can't make any noise, you have to be totally quiet. And let's be honest, I don't know that I was catching everything in that environment, everything that my director was saying anyway, because it was such a kind of moment. I think that's much healthier and a better way to do it. So thanks for that. Thanks for the rabbit trip.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

No, no problem. Okay. So the next one would be uh, how do you support the students' academic success? Because to the admin, they do want to have a good band, but they really want to have kids who can read and write. Right. And band is secondary to that. It might be a close second, but it's still secondary to that. Okay. Uh, this another chance to showcase the research you've done. Yes, fine arts existence supports academic success anyway, but not every administrator buys into that. So be able to suggest things like your older kids tutoring the younger kids, checking grades periodically. I, as a director, communicate with the parents and the classroom teachers. When I was in high school, I was a big number sense guy. You know what I mean? So I was in UIL mathematics. I was an athlete. So I can help kids with trig and calculus. You know, so it's it's uh it shows the fact that you're not just this kind of oddball musician, you know, hippie guy that's coming in to just do the band program, that you actually are grounded in academics, that you I graduated third in my class from high school. Um, so I have a strong foundation and academic structure, and said I feel like I can bring that to the table as a band director, that uh that it's all part of the same thing. Campus improvement plans, uh, they they might literally ask you, are you willing to serve on a committee? The answer is yes. Okay. So many directors shy away from that. They'll say, Will you be on the campus site-based committee? I don't know. I've got so many things. Could you maybe ask like an English teacher or something? What an idiot you are to turn that down. If they ask you to serve on a committee, you might not be able to make every meeting, but you will gain so many points and credibility with the academic teachers and with the admin that you actually do care about the campus. You're not just caring about your band hall. Make yourself potentially valuable to them. Not to the band, to them. Okay. Then they'll ask what method of communication do you use to keep parents updated? And this changes yearly. I mean, back when I retired, I think remind was a big thing. I think it's now gone the way of death. Okay. Do you use a website? Even that is pretty clunky nowadays. Email blasts seem to be the most appropriate. I don't know. You can put Google Calendar on there or the iCal, you know, where it'll it'll load in. I would say on the emails, Eric Rath, a good friend of mine up in Canyon in Amarillo, he has the greatest email signature of anyone I've ever seen. Because if you get an email from him, it has a list, it has his signature, of course, and you know, director of bands and uh uh it's it does say it says director of bands and answer of many emails. I think it's what it says on there. And then underneath it has like 10 links, like hyperlinks. They're in blue, you know, and it has like our band handbook and uh our band travel expectations, or it has all these things that would answer potential questions. So anytime a parent gets an email, those are always on the bottom of the email so they can click on it. I think that's brilliant. Instead of waiting for a parent to go, how do we determine such and such? You know, they can look at that and because we're in a society now where our parents now would rather go through an automated system on a phone or a computer than they would to talk to a person. I think I've done business with Bank of America now for 15 years without speaking to a person maybe four times. You know, everything's done automated. And so we're in that, we're in that situation in life. So to tell them, give me a call when you want to know something, that's almost insulting to them. They're like, Oh God, how rude could that be? You know, I just I just want the information. So put the links on there. So make sure you at least have a plan for how you're gonna communicate. And then what's your vision for the program? Mainly this is head director positions, whether it be middle school or a beginner band head director. There's bigger programs that have a sixth grade head director. You know, what's your vision for this program? What do you see the future being? This is a this is a moving target, by the way. Your vision can and will change, and that's okay. Begin with where you stand on the importance of culture, climate, ratings, participation, quality, quantity, community connections, college readiness, overall experiences. I mean, it could go on forever, couldn't it? Okay. Use research to drive what you feel is important. Just remember that the administration and community community expectations are important to recognize and include when speaking about this. Your vision is a living, breathing thing that will grow and develop as the program does if you approach it correctly. And I'll give you one example of expectations. Many directors might have a problem with this because we did. We ended up in a situation to where the percussion section, it was a rather, it was a pretty big band, about 160 kids, uh, probably 25, 30 kids in percussion, if more, not more. But it started to be tracked as the losers were in the front ensemble, and the cool kids who knew what they were doing were in the battery on the field, being snare, tender, drum, bass drum.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Snare line, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yeah. So it just kind of built that way. So the way our vision was with our percussion person, with my good friend Luke McMillan, who's my assistant band director for 11 years, and myself, we sat down and they came up with a great idea, not my idea. They said, let's have the kids all try out on front ensemble stuff. And then if they if they're the best Marimba player, then they can choose what they want to play in the battery. They can be a snare player or a tenor player. Now, here's where it comes into the point of expectations. We had no earthly idea that the kids didn't care about the marching show. They cared about the pep rally feature. They cared about playing battery equipment in the stands, they cared about playing third quarter for the student body. They'd sneak over in the battery, the drum line, or play for third quarter. So we said it's a yeah, yeah. So that was their expectation. That's what they loved. To us, that was just such a stupid sideline to what we did as a band program. To them, that was the most important thing. So this worked. So if this works for your bands out there, go for it. But they could try and they'd make first chair vibes. And then they could choose, I want to play tenor drums, I want to play quads or quints. And so we'd go, very good. You're gonna play vibes for the marching show. So you'll be in the front ensemble. Then for every time in the stands, everyone plays battery equipment. No one plays front ensemble equipment in the stands. And for all the pepper Alley features, you'll play your quince. And then for every time we march the halls, you know, those times you march down the hall and the drumline leads the tennis team to state or whatever. You know, that was important to them. I could care less. I really couldn't care less, I guess is a proper term. I could not care less about marching the hallway. To them, that was really important because they played for a thousand of their friends. The least important thing in their mind was that stupid six-minute show that was so important to Mike Lenny. So once we got our expectations lined up, all of a sudden we had our best quality players in the front ensemble. So our front ensemble just exploded in quality. And then if we needed someone to go back into the battery, we could. We had that opportunity, would say, and they would go, I don't know. Does this mean I lose my spot on Snare because now I'm not playing my vibes anymore? No, no, we just need you on bass drum three just for the show. Okay, I don't care about the show.

unknown 47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

And then we became very obvious about it, very transparent about it, because before they kept it as a hidden secret, didn't they? They would, they would, they would pretend they cared about the show. They don't care about the show as much as you think they care about the show, the percussion. They care about playing for the pep rally feature. They want to play on garbage cans as a kind of gimmicky thing, you know, and they want to turn out all the lights and glow sticks and have all this stuff going. And I that's great. Use it to your advantage. Okay. That's kind of a long trek down the rabbit hole, but hopefully out of everything we've said so far. The vision of the band program is to meet expectations and figure out what the expectations are. And I think I know that that's really important. Okay. Um here's a really important one. How do you work to build appropriate relationships with students?

SPEAKER_02 48:46

I'm gonna just let you go.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Okay. Um, what I personally want to hear are things like I want to get to know them, their families, their interest. If they have non-band events, I try to come support them or at least ask them how their event went. I pay attention to their body language and check in on them when they seem to be having an off day. I work to create a family atmosphere in which the kids feel safe and secure and free to be themselves. I also work to create a program that's supportive of other groups and activities on the campus and in the community. We're all on the same team. You do have to mean those things. You can't just say them. You have to mean them. But then more we cross the line is when we have a texting uh thread with one student, or we uh offer to give that student a ride home because their parents didn't show up. If you've got to stay till four in the morning or whatever your school policy is, do not get in a car with a student by yourself. Um, do not sit in your office with the doors closed and the blinds drawn. First thing I did when I moved into the Wiley campus was I had the door replaced because it had no window on it. And I had the, I took all the blinds out of the windows and threw them away because I wanted that to be a fishbowl. Yeah, I did not want any kind of a we close the blinds, we close the door, now I need to talk to you privately. Um because, you know, it's not a quiet part out loud. We all know all the things going on. It's in the news every day. If this band director had a sexual relationship with this student, are alleged to have done so. And uh it ruins lives, it ruins the kids, are definitely the victims in this because it's a uh a power situation. You have more power than they do. Okay. So you've got to be very considerate of your body language, you've got to be very considerate of your communication skills, you've got to be very considerate of your logistics of the room, of that you're in the band hall. You know, if if there's only one kid left and everyone's gone home for the day for the uh after a football game, make sure there's one other band director there with you. And it's not because it's a girl and I'm a guy. It's not because I'm a guy and it's a girl. Um, because every relationship exists in today's world, always has existed, it's just more evident in today's world. Um, so don't take any of that for granted. I can I can give a boy a ride home in a car because I'm a I'm a male and he's a male. Um, don't fall into those old boomer mentalities, you know. Um, and some schools actually have it in their policy that if the parent doesn't come pick them up, your job is to call the police. And the police come pick up the child, and the parent picks up the uh child at the police station. Um, that's actually, believe it or not, that is in school policy for a lot of schools. Um, so you follow what has to happen. I think the most glaring, um, I I know this kind of drawn this out a little longer than maybe needed, but I think maybe it is needed. But the best workshop I ever went to at our band director convention was the assistant district attorney in Houston proper. And he gave a uh on ethics. And uh he started off with saying, my job is to catch you doing inappropriate things with minors. That is my only job in this world, whether it's a band director, whether it's a coach, or whether it's a teacher, that's how my channel is. Schools, inappropriate relationships, sexual relationships with students, um, emotional relationships, et cetera. He said, that is my job. And he said, I'm really damn good at it. Wow. He goes, I'm really damn good at it. So I've met many a coach and a band director behind the stands as the assistant district attorney because I set up the texting messages, and you came to the location at the 7-Eleven or behind the stands, and you met with me, and you were thereby arrested and charged. So I'm here to put the fear of God in you, buddy. You know, so it's uh you need to know there, there's there's not a fine line between the two. There's a definite brick wall between appropriate relationships and inappropriate relationships. This fine line thing doesn't work anymore. So, you know, we are on the same team. We want to go support those kids. Never catch yourself. I would, I would never in my life at this time. You know, when I was younger, when phones first came out, that's how old I am. You know, we would, kids would text us, you know, are we leaving at this time? And I would text back. I would never do that again. You know, it has to be done through school email. There has to be a paper trail. I don't want anything on there, you know, because things happen in a text. You might think you're sending a text to a friend and you accidentally click on the wrong person. And all of a sudden you've sent this very glaring text that wasn't even meant for that student. And all of a sudden it's sitting on their phone and they're reading it, going, oh my God, what where did this come from? You know, it might be someone who you were wanting to go out with that evening that's an adult, and you sent them this little bit off-color message and it landed on a student's phone. Don't just don't even don't even get in that boat. You know what I mean? Don't even get in that lake. Don't even get in that county, you know what I mean? Just make it to where your phone cannot reach them unless you're going through your school email. Right. You know. And I will assume it's not, but you know, but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

One little tag to that perception is reality. It doesn't matter what your intent was, how it's perceived is the reality. Yes. And it's important to know that and in an interview to express that you know that.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Yes. There's no doubt about that. Okay. And the next one, you know, to to leave that very uh awkward moment of our podcast. It's it's it is very awkward. And uh that's what makes it such a but it has to be said.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

I I used to think, Mike, that people knew better. I don't know that people know any better now that we just we we've become so casual in our society. Yeah, but there are still lines, there are still things that educators, good educators, don't do.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Yeah, they just can't do it. They just can't do it. Okay. And uh they'll ask you, what's an area you feel like you could grow in as an educator? Or they might simply ask, uh, tell us a problem you've had as an educator and how you overcame it. So you'd better have something in your wheelhouse with it. And please don't do this. My biggest flaw is I'm a perfectionist, and I'm so hard on myself that I get myself so worked up and I don't teach as well because I'm such a perfectionist. Give me a freaking break, you know. So maybe you are a perfectionist. I don't want to hear about that. Um, I want to hear about this happened in your rehearsal, and a kid punched another kid in the face and slammed their horn into the parking lot asphalt and walked off the field. And this is how I handled it, and I handled it incorrectly. And I've grown as an educator since then, and this is how I would handle it today. Give a real life example of something that you because we've all made mistakes, right? I mean, unless you're the perfectionist, I suppose. You know, but uh, we've all made mistakes. Tell them a mistake you've made and how you fix that mistake or how you've learned from that mistake. You can't fix all mistakes. Um, if you seem untouchable and arrogant, you will become unhireable.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Great point.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Yeah. Okay. And lastly, there's a million possible questions that people could ask. So, you know, you could drive yourself crazy as an applicant trying to figure out all these. Um, campus admin will likely shy away from music-specific questions, like, you know, my trumpet player and beginner bands having trouble playing higher on their instrument. What are some things I can do? That's not going to be an assistant principal question. But there's a lot of times when you have a fine arts director or a head band director and you're going to be an assistant at the middle school or the high school, be honest with them about your knowledge base. You know, if they say, uh, tell me an alternate fingering for a C sharp on clarinet below the staff. If you don't know, just say, I don't know. Say, but I do know how to get the answer.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Like hasn't come up in my teaching career yet, but I know where to go.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Yeah, yeah. And it's uh, especially if you're a first-year teacher, you know, it's okay to say, you know, I really don't know this. One of my uh the kids rent on this, one of my things that I would do, because I always had band quartermasters that took care of the equipment. There were students that were assigned to take care of inventory and stuff. And they they love doing that job. But if I get a new student teacher, I would say, uh, hey, go back there and ask Derek uh for a trouble cleft baritone. They'd go back there and go, uh, Mr. Lenny said he needs a trouble cleft baritone, and they were in on it. They'd go, oh, oh man, we checked out all our trouble cleft baritones. Go tell Mr. Lenny we're out of trouble cleft baritones right now, unless a kid decides to move to something else. They'd come back, and if they came back and told me that, then I'd go, All right, what is a trouble cleft baritone? And they'd finally kind of crater and go, I don't know. Right. It's the same baritone, you know, student teacher person. You know, it's the same baritone. They just read the music differently.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

You know, my favorite is go make sure all the uh mallets are matched, left-handed, right-handed.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Yeah. My favorite, it has nothing to do with uh music at all. But we had a librarian when I was in a lecturer at the junior high that would start a chain reaction. He would send a student to a teacher because that teacher had just checked out previously the paper stretcher from the library. And so this was an ongoing thing. He would pick a student that just to give him heck and he'd say, Derek, come up here a second. Hey, Derek, can you go to Mr. Lenny's class? He's the last one who checked it out. Can you ask him if he's still got the paper stretcher? Because obviously there's no such thing as a paper stretcher. You can't stretch paper. So this kid would come in my classroom, interrupt my rehearsal, by the way, and go, uh, Mr. Rich wants to know, uh, do you have the paper stretcher? I don't. But I did give it to Mrs. Shauver over in the English department. Mrs. Shauver has the paper stretcher. We would send that kid for an hour on campus going everywhere looking for the paper stretcher. And it was more just a way to keep ourselves entertained, but it does show a lack of uh, you know, maybe too much trust on the student side. But not one time would the kid ever ask, How do you stretch paper, Mr. Luddy? This doesn't make sense to me. I don't, I know rubber bands I can see, you know. So you can't stretch. Yeah, you're right. Finally, if a kid would ask, we'd we'd give up, we'd go, you're absolutely correct. We're just giving you a hard time. We're just trying to waste your time and send you all over campus. So it's a, you know, we would do that with trouble cleft bear tones. Um, but you know, it's okay to say you don't know. It's okay to tell your band you don't know. I don't know how many times I've gotten to something in a piece of music and it'll be a term. And I'll go, man, I should have looked at this beforehand, but I really don't know what this means. You know, because it'll be in like French, you know, instead of Italian. And I said, But you know what? So uh you have my permission right now, but get at your phone and Google this. They go, of course, the principal walked in, I'd be fired. You know what they'll they'll look it up and go, it means to do this. Okay, it means like a nuito, is it means to go away to nothingness. Okay, all right, all right, we got it. All right, everybody, write that on your part and I'll write it on my part too.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

You know, so it's okay. Now we all know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Now we all know, you know, but it they you know as well as I do, Derek, they can sniff through a a BS session of, well, I believe it means to do such and such. According to the conservatory in Paris, I believe we can do that. Yeah. So they're going, oh, he's full of crap. He doesn't know what's going on. You know, but you know, once you get through all this process, you know, and I've gone through all these things that kind of stage the interview, doesn't it? It's like staging a house to sell it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

When it all comes down to it, just be honest, be real with whoever's interviewing with you. Um, don't seem too desperate. Don't seem like you don't need the job, but don't seem too desperate. Try to ride that line of I want to work here because I feel like this can help me as a person. I feel like I can help you as a band director, and I can further my mission as a band director through your school system. But I gotta have a job. They're about to take my car. Right. Don't seem too needy. Um but you know, in the closing, research, prepare, answer honestly and sincerely to the best of your ability, reflect on your performance in the interview, and improve based on that reflection of the interview and repeat and don't give up. It's like, you know, lather, rinse, repeat. It takes lots of interviews. And I've heard people say this. I'll close with this on my portion, and then Derek, you can add what you would you'd like to. Um, but I've heard students who are now directors say, Man, I really wasted my time going to that interview. There's no such thing as a wasted interview. You learn something. You didn't get hired. That doesn't make it a waste. You learn something. Even as a person interviewing people, I learned something every single time about I could have done this better, I could have asked this question in a different way. I would ask a question, they'd answer on some total off tangent, and I'd think about it and go, well, I didn't really ask them what I wanted to know. I just asked them this question and they'd they answered the question. You know, so you've got to figure out as a person giving interviews how you need to do what you do better. But there's no such thing as a wasted interview.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

Back to your question. And and I think it's interesting uh as well. You know, there's a concept. This is John A. Cup thing that he says is why would you expect to be good at something you've never done before? So I'm gonna actually throw it back at you real quick. Practice interviews.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

Yeah. You know, just uh you feel free to work with a uh I keep saying student because I'm so damn old, but you know, to work with a young band director who's who's like a man, I've I've been to five interviews and I just don't seem to be making any headway. And I'll say, well, you know, they're in a different part of the state. Why don't we schedule like 15 minutes on Zoom and say just send me a send me the link and the and let's figure out a time and I'll go through a real quick synopsis of what we need to do, and then you know, they'll start to answer a question. I'll go, time, never say that in an interview. Do not say that ever again in your life. Or here's a better way to discuss what's your discipline plan? And also they go into a 30-minute dissertation on discipline. It's like time, they don't want the 30-minute dissertation. They want to know your philosophy of how you do your discipline, how you're gonna set up your expectations, how you're gonna follow through, how you're gonna deal with admin and parents and kids. Said keep it short and simple. Keep it simple, stupid. You know, the KISS method, you know. So, you know, it it helps. It helps because sometimes they think that the more material they present, the more hirable they are. When sometimes it's uh, you know, what's it called? Marginal utility. You know, I mean, it's like you know, marginal utility, though the more information's not necessarily a better thing, you know. So yeah, better it's sometimes better just to give them what they're asking and let them answer or ask more questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Keep them involved in that. I also believe that I would phrase it this way. They're looking for genuine people who know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

Yeah. Of good.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

They're not looking I don't know that there are perfect if it was if that interview was too good to be true, there's probably that it wasn't a good interview.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

Yeah. And you know, another quiet part loud to kind of kind of tag on at the end. I know some people that are probably really great interview candidates. You know how I know that? Because they've had 15 jobs in 15 years. Because they're good at it. Think about that for a second. Well, I always joke about this. They must be a really great interview because by the time you get to your 15th job in 15 years, don't you think an admin would be going, we need to kind of figure out what's going on here. Why have you been at 15 14 places and now you're applying at your 15th place in 15 years? Uh, what's going on here? So they must be a really good, they must talk a good talk and be a good interview because that admin, for some reason, I know they've been 14 places in the last 14 years. You think they're our person, we need to hire this person.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

The other thing that I try to tell people as I'm helping in the process is uh charm might get you in the door, but character's gonna keep you there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

Oh, that's a good quote.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

So I never want to fake who I am. Yeah. I just because I, you know, it's good interview. That's charm.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah. And don't lie in interview, don't lie at them. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

You know, yeah, because they're it won't take long to figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Figure it out. And the kids will figure it out and tell the head director or the tell the principal said he really doesn't know, or she really doesn't know what she's doing. They'll tell the principal that, you know. I've been banned now for For like four years, and you know, if they're beginners, and I'm pretty sure they're they're kind of confused. I'm not sure they know what they're doing. You know, they'll be real honest with their principal. So and their parents, especially, their parents will start going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Great stuff, my friend. And uh again, I think sometimes we psych ourselves out and we turn it into it's I've got to be perfect. This is, you know, if we make one bad mistake, we're like, oh, another one bad mistake. But if we say one thing that we didn't really want to say, you know what I mean? Sometimes we get tongue-tied. Yeah, I do it all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

It's like a bad note in your senior recital. One bad note doesn't negate the entire recital.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

But you gotta be confident in who you are, and you've got to be confident in why you do what you do and why you want to do that here. And then just sometimes you have to. We've said this in the a priority uh episode. Sometimes it just doesn't fit. That's okay. Yeah. At least you are confident and presented yourself the best that you could present. That's all you can do.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Yeah. I'll tell you what, Derek, in our next two podcasts, we're gonna do it on uh how to leave your job in a classy manner. Because once you've gotten that new job, we've got to figure out how do we leave this one without total burning and nuking the band hall and burning bridges. You know, we've got to figure that out. And then the the one after that's gonna be on the old retire, rehire system of that and people who have left the profession and have figured out that, you know, I really am a pretty good band director. I want to get back into teaching. So that's gonna be our next two podcasts to kind of give them a little snippet.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:43

Well, I'm looking forward to hope you have a great week out there in the trenches.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

We'll do, we'll do.