School Classifications: A Comparison and Contrast

Mike Lunney is joined again this episode with friend of the podcast Michael Watts, a retired/rehired educator with experience at many different classifications in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona public schools. Are there considerations to consider before or while you are teaching in the different classifications? Are the differences in teaching styles or in expectations? Thought provoking conversation.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

Mike Looney, we got our friend back. We do. And we only have like two or three friends, so it's one of three. So you know. We we try to keep that quiet, but it's good to have our friend Mike Watts. Mr. Watts, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Doing fine. Just enjoying the time off here now for a little bit. Another two weeks it gets busy again.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

But as we record this, the state of Texas has finally wrapped up all the end of the year competitions. And yeah. Everybody's enjoying their 10 days off.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yeah, you know. They're already ramping up for next year. I mean, yeah, I've got three regions judging in next year. And I'll run in the five-day contest in Midland. Well, I talked to you about that there in Midland. You know, it just it doesn't rest. And I, you know, I guess that's good. No rest for the wicked.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Well, I think that that uh I'm glad you're here. One of the things that you know, I always laugh when we have Mr. Watts on because it's either way I go, it's ask Mike. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

There's a lot of Mike opinions.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Well the former has a lot the former has a lot more class than I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

So I don't know about that. I always battle the Mike check, Mike Check. Mike check, but um Mr. Watch, one of the things that's interesting about your career, and you can elaborate as much or as little as you want to, is uh although I think the bulk of your career was uh in the largest classification in the state of Texas, uh you have spent time in different classifications, smaller, even out of state, in a what I would anticipate is a smaller situation than what you had at Odessa Permian. But you've got experience up and down uh those class that classification tree. And so uh one of the things that that and you know, and everybody knows Mike Lenny has been up and down that tree as well. I mean Yeah, I've been fired at a lot of places.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Thanks for bringing it up.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

So T when you were there, Throckmorton was what class? Class A.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

It just came up through class B. At that time, they were called Class B schools. And how many kids did you have in the entire program? Uh there's uh it was a pretty big band for a class A school. It was about 60 kids because there's good 120 in the high school.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Well, look at the percentage of population. You had some clout there, didn't even know it.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Well, I just showed up and they were there, but it's uh there was nothing else to do in Throckmorton, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

So I laugh because you've made business. It was awesome. You've said yourself that you were the only you were the music teacher for the entire county.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah, and it's it's the only school I've taught at that kids came to rehearsal sometimes in tractors, sometimes on horseback. They'd tie their horse up outside the band hall. They we'd do band practice, they'd go out and get on their horse and go home.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Well but uh, you know, and I kind of juxtaposed that against uh Odessa Permia is one of the largest six A schools in the entire state. I don't know where they rank now, but it's usually within the top five. Yeah, they're number four right now. So uh and and you know, your band program was in the hundreds.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

So uh Yeah, uh you know, I I don't know, I I guess the only classification that I haven't that I haven't taught uh is one A. Yeah, it really opened my eyes this year with a lot of a lot of groups that are you know around sundown and and around the area here are one A's. But I started started in Arizona, it would have been equivalent to a 5A program here, and then uh taught middle school at Bottom in Odessa, and uh then Permian and taught Clovis, you know, Plainview, and now it's sundown. Um so I guess the whole spectrum is there and they all they all are unique, you know. They've all got their their pluses and minuses, and it just depends on the director and what his aspirations, what he wants to do or she wants to do, you know, with their career or their family, with their you know, their life, what they want to do. And uh so that's that's why I think this is such a great topic, because unless you've been there, you have you don't really have an idea what you know what goes on uh with um sundown every day, what goes on at Prairie every day, what goes on at Bonham Junior High every day, what goes on in Clovis, you know, what uh what goes on in Phoenix where I taught were 12 high schools, and the high school that I I taught at had three separate feeder schools that had three separate um three separate school boards, had no affiliation with no affiliation with Camelback High School at all. So I had to maneuver through four different school boards, four different principals, four different budgets, four different and everything. So um everything is everything is so unique.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

So So first thing that I'm interested in in talking to you about is uh and listen, this is gonna be there's an obvious answer, but I'm kind of looking at the nuance of it. The kids that are in the program, kids or kids are kids, and you can probably find talented musicians everywhere you go, and and kids that want to be good musicians everywhere you go. But I'm gonna throw a program that you weren't part of, but I I talked to the director there back when I was uh out being an active salesperson, and and I asked him, I said, Man, you're having a concert at four o'clock in the afternoon. What why would you have a con? He said, once these kids leave, they're out working on the farm. It's really hard to get anybody back. Their parents are busy. They if I don't do it then, we don't have them. So I guess the question there is, uh, as you for anybody considering that, there is probably a difference in how you're able to uh the obligation level of the kid. I don't know if that's the right word, but do you kind of get where I'm going with that? Do you find that it's harder just to say, here's our rehearsal schedules show up at at the at at different classifications?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Well, I I don't think that that's necessarily unique to small schools. Uh, you know, I could I could not ever try to have a rehearsal on a Wednesday afternoon or evening, you know, that's uh well, all of the churches. Or on a Sunday afternoon, you know, or you you just don't do that. Or on a Friday afternoon, even in the fall, when fall's finished, you've got baseball track, everything else that the kids are involved in. So you have you have to work around that schedule. It's just a matter of the percentage of kids that are involved in those programs, you know, for instance, sundown, you know, 135 kids, 145 kids in the high school, they're all doing something. And uh that's not necessarily true in a larger school when you know Permanent's high school class last year graduated at 875. You know, so it's it's it's just all all unique, you know. And and when you get back to the statement you made at the beginning where kids are kids, you know, kids are kids, their problems are the same, I feel. They all worry about their image, they all worry about how they project to other people, they all worry worry about friends, you know, uh peers. But as far as dedication and as far as um what they want to learn, um I think it's a little bit different. Um so I think that you know, for instance, a lot of the kids in Sundown, um their idea of coming to Lubbock is wow, you know, wow, we're going to Lubbock. Going to the big city? Yeah. Whereas, you know, Perlin or any of the Metroplex schools, you know, hey, we're going to Orlando. Oh man, can't we, you know, what about Ireland? You know, it's just a whole different it's just a whole different uh outlook on life from experiences that they've already that they've already gone through with their parents or with their church or or somewhere else where it's sundown or I would imagine, you know, Mike through most of the other smaller schools, it's it's pretty much all right there. And uh it's it's it's a completely different feeling, and it's they both have their advantages and they're both wonderful. And uh I wouldn't trade either one for as having an advantage over the other, except in what you personally as a director want to achieve with your career. So I don't know, maybe I got way off the point.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

No, did you find the same experience, Mr. Looning?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Yeah, it's uh, you know, with the smaller schools, a lot of times, like you said, it's harder to get them all there because your school might be the only school in the county. There's some schools that I know of that are the only high school in three counties in Texas. So, you know, like you said, you know, the kid once the kids are gone, they're gone, kind of thing. Um, but then on the other hand, there's also small schools where pretty much everybody lives in the town. You know, so they they all walk to rehearsal, you know, everyone's only, you know, at the most 10 blocks away from the high school. So so there's pluses and minuses on either side. I think the biggest difference is the for me is that at a small school, you have the same ratio of really intelligent, great kids as a big school, but you have less numbers in the pool. You know what I mean? So, you know, if you're in a bigger school, when I taught at a four A school about to become a five A school, there were a lot more kids that were what I would call your quintessential band kid. You know, that they they they did band, you know, that's what they did. And in a small school, when I taught, like in a 1A or a 2A, there might be two kids that, you know, were pretty much what I would call that prototypical band kid. You know, everyone else, you just have to get used to the idea that they do a million activities. Um, and it is more prevalent with a small school, but it definitely does affect in the larger schools too, as we kind of keep expanding the different electives, things like that. But as a director, um, if you want to do higher level literature, it's a numbers game of you've got to be in a bigger school to where you can have multiple bands at the high school level. So if that if that's your what you want to do, then you know, a small school, you will not be happy. You know, if you're go I feel like in a larger school, our rehearsal techniques and what we do is more pointed towards making the entire ensemble better. Where in a small school, it's like you you're really into, I only have three clarinets and I need to have one of them able to play their part really well. So you're more laser focused into that one kid needs to get better on their instrument. Where when I was at Wiley, if you have, you know, 35 trumpet players, it's like, you know, if if one drops band, it I didn't cry too hard. It was like, you know, well, that spots gonna be filled, you know, let them do what they need to do, kind of thing. But boy, I tell you what, if you lose a tuba player and you're at a two A high school and it's a good player, it hurts.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

That was part of the things, I mean, uh jump in. That was one of the things that I'm spoiled without in Sundown, you know, because Justin Justin has a program there, eight through twelve. You know, we had 135 kids in the group. We had 35 clarinets, you know, nine, nine, set, nine Susan balls, you know, and that and I could go on. Um, but it really opened my eyes uh last year when uh I'm doing some pre-UILs. And uh I've never worked so hard trying to evaluate and try to help some of these schools, like Mike was saying, where you know, they've got two or three clarinets, six trumpets, no horns, you know, um, and they're trying to play something that is above them, but what can they play that that they so just trying to work with them and trying to get them trying to teach to improve, it's it's so so difficult. You can hide so much in a larger group, but boy, there's nowhere to hide when you've got 17 kids out on the field, and you know, your rehearsals do change, but it's tough.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Yeah, and I tell you what, if you want, as a young teacher, if you want to learn how to really teach and be a band director, um go to a 1A or a 2A, because you were thrown into the fire. You you've got to figure out how to teach a saxophone and how to teach clarinet and how to teach flute and how to teach trombone and and how to teach guard and how to teach body movement and how to teach percussion and what a paradiddle is, you know, where uh when I was at the end part of my career, you know, I had a percussion band director, and so I would not even I could have cared less what was going on in the percussion section because I thought it was being taken care of. Here's the music, they took care of it. Uh, I had no earthly idea, you know. And uh when I taught at a 1A or a 2A, it was a little more. I'm not saying it's a harder job, it's just a different job. You know, you you've got to be the band director. And uh the larger the school, the more you become the CEO band director, especially if you have a larger staff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

That that's true. I uh I was real fortunate coming up though, because I mean I didn't have an assistant at bottom. Yeah, I didn't have an I had when I got the perme and I was the assistant, you know. Uh when I became the head director, John Carroll was my assistant. So when you sit there and say, well, the clarinet's from that guy, you know, it's one of the best things I ever did was teach middle school in Odessa, Texas, with you know, J.R. McIntyre over at the back over my back, going, What do you want your clarinet to sound like? Well, figure out how to make it make to make that sound. You know, what with trumpet, what do you want it to sound like? Make sure you can figure out how to teach it. So that went all the way through my career. And you know, even even today, going out you know, to sundown every day, uh, or playing view, or wherever, I know the sound that I want to hear, and I know how to get it produced. And it's it's just so beneficial for young directors that they they have got to learn how the pedagogy of all of the instruments, regardless of whether or not you've got somebody on staff that's a clarinet teacher. They may be a good clarinet teacher, but they may be young and they may be not getting to where you want to get to and how you want to get there. And if you can't tell them how you want to get there and what you want to hear, then it's almost doing more damage than good.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

So I don't know. Well, you do bring up a really good point in the fact that you know, if you're the the one person, you know, you're responsible for everything that happens. So you're making a lot more musical decisions every day. If you're lucky enough, like I had a you know, multiple band directors on staff and towards the end of my career, and then you you spend a lot more of your day solving people problems than you do solving musical problems. You know, so there's still you you get to and you cherish that time, don't you, Mike, with the when you get in front of your own band and you get that 45 minutes or 50 minutes that you can actually be a musician because the rest of the day you're uh you you're just kind of dealing budgets and dealing with emails and trying to so-and-so's mad at so-and-so, and this parent's mad at this band director, and you're trying to investigate and kind of figure out what's going on. And it's just always just people problems kind of going on. So that's a big decision as a band director that it as you go up. I my good friend Bill Woods said it best. He said, the more A's that are after the the name of the school, the problems are multiplied by a hundred for each A you add. You know, there's just more problems, you know. And uh so you but that's a really good point. It's a really good point.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Let me ask you this guy, I just curious. Listen, I I realize that it would seem to me, because I didn't teach, that's make sure we say that to everybody, but it in my experience watching guys teach at the different classifications, sometimes the administrative issues are easier at a smaller classification, or it feels like that to me. They there's more of a um it's it just easier conversation because there's he's not maybe that administrator's not as pressed by uh, you know, I have no idea how many teachers are appropriate, but if there's 50 teachers at sundown, then that's probably less. And not everybody's pressing everybody, you know, wanting time out of his schedule, and or you all live in the same place pretty close together, you see each other outside of the the the teaching environment. I don't know. Is it different dealing with administration higher and lower classifications? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I mean, the superintendent was too often too, you know, right around the corner at sundown. You know, I couldn't find a superintendent for weeks in Odessa, even if I made an appointment. You always had to go through the music supervisor, which was great because he was a buffer. But that poor guy, he's like an assistant principal. You know, you're not gonna get an answer from him. So you know, you you want to go to the horse's mouth. And in in sundown, the prince, you know, the principal, two of his kids were in the band. He was the announcer for the band, you know, Griff. So I mean, everything is so much more condensed and easier as far as an administrative side at Sundown than it is at uh you know, Premiere or Odessa High or up in Louisville or you know, wherever. It's just so much easier. But the the the problems that are there are all the same. You're fighting budget, you're fighting numbers, you're fighting schedule, you're fighting um not fighting, you that's the wrong term. No, that's the right term. You know, you're you're you're constantly you know, you're constantly looking at all of the different variables that can hurt your that can disrupt your program and trying to head them off with the past and be proactive with it. And the directors that are reactive with it are not successful. So if you don't spend that time with the administrators on no matter what level you are, you know, um, then it's it's a it's a it's quite the battle, but it is a lot easier in the small school reaching the people. It may not be easier getting a good answer that you want, but it's a lot easier with a one-on-one uh than it is uh at the larger schools.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, my very first job, I thought it was hilarious because I asked, how do I get my bills paid when I get, you know, for the music store or whatever? Said, oh, at the end of the month, you just take them to Judy. What? Said, do I fill anything out? No, you just take the bills over to Judy. Judy Borton was her name, and it was a secretary in the finance place, and she just said, Oh, thank you. That was my job. I was doing that. You know, and then all of a sudden now, you know, it it and I know it was a different time period too, but yeah, and it's with administration, it's I found it very refreshing at a smaller school that you could just go by the superintendent's office and peek through the door. They could look around the corner and go, hey, are you missing it? But yeah, come on in, come on in. You know, you in a larger school, they're they're surrounded by three uh circles of security of uh secretaries and assistant soups and fine arts directors, and and their whole purpose is to make sure that you're not able to talk to the superintendent. That's the whole purpose, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

We've gotten so much away from that, Mike. I can remember when I was at Bonham Junior High, this is 42 years ago now, that the superintendent used to come up at least once a week and sit in his car and watch my music rehearsal outside of my march, yeah, junior high march. But he'd come out and listen. After half times with the middle school, with the junior high, you know, he'd come up and say, Hey, nice, you come down from the press spots. He was at everything. Now I think that they really work hard to stay away from everything. Yeah, they do. And it's really too bad. In the larger schools, now it's not necessarily you know that way all the all over, but boy, 95% of the uh larger schools, they they just don't want anything, any interaction. You go through the channels. And uh it it's it's really too bad. Um, really too bad.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

So as a director, they you've got to kind of figure out are you more comfortable being kind of on an island as a band director and you run your own program like a pirate? Or are you are you more comfortable with being able to speak with your administration at any given moment? And so it's uh it's a decision that has to be made because it is a whole lot different. It's a lot different.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Well, I also think just my opinion in in that uh larger classification, it's a lot less personal. I think we've established that. But at the same time, if you're the smaller classification, again, I said it before, but you live with all the people that you're making decisions for. You you it's it's not easy to duck them. There are if you run into somebody like that in Odessa, it's just happenstance. But in Sundown, everybody goes to the same place to get gas, everybody goes to the same place to, you know, after church to eat lunch or whatever. Well, you're much more inclined to run into people. It probably uh influences the way you make decisions.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Derek, did you grow up in Odessa? Midland. Midland, okay. Especially the same size town for people to live in. We can still use the same the same demographic. When I hired in at Bonham, uh, it was East Side, West Side. Right. Okay, same thing with at in Midland. It was Midland High, all of them feeder schools, all of the elementaries, they all knew they were going to Midland High or Midland Lee. The same with the way it was over in Odessa when they started. And that was so unique because you'd go to the middle schools and the elementary schools, and they all had their black and white on Fridays. You know, all everybody went to the games. Everybody, it was a more of a social small school setting. And now that everything's diversified, and most of the high schools and most of the programs across the state that have multiple high schools, it's no longer that way. You're either going to the New Tech High School, you're going to the IB high school, you're going to the pre-college one, you're going to the arts, fine arts college. There's no sense of community there. Whereas in a small school, that community is very, very rich. And um, I love it. Uh and it's like you said, in Sundown, everybody knows everybody. They come out and watch his rehearsals on Tuesday night. You know, I went out to a game this year, even though I didn't have great games. I wanted to see what Sundown America does at games. Well, the whole town is there, you know, and it's great. Um, it reminds me of the old days of Permian and OHS, where you you'd have 12,000, 14,000 people in the stands, and it was a more of a small school atmosphere in a large town. So, you know, it's we're kind of getting off the subject about you know what what a a young director might be looking towards, but it's a very distinct, it's a very distinct separation. And that if it's a y if a young director is looking to really get, I feel anyway, the full sense of being a total band director, I feel that a small school setting is a lot better than a large school setting, because they're gonna have to they're gonna have to teach that clarinet player how to stay in step, how to how to form that omate, the euphonium, you know. They have to they have to be hands-on right away with everything. Whereas if they're the assistant of Hebron, we're gonna have a specialty, you know, they're gonna be a woodwind specialist, they're gonna take you the clariness and flutes, you know, they're gonna have a private lesson staff come in, they're not gonna learn how to teach that instrument. But on the same token, if you want, if you're a I could I could not have done that when I was a young director. I I I just couldn't do it. I wanted, I wanted to play literature, and I pursued that my whole career. And so I was fortunate enough that that, you know, my time, my four years at Bonham, that I was I learned all that. But it was just by happenstance because my my sites were set higher. I wanted to be able to play the Hinemus Symphony, I wanted to be able to play from Dow Symphony out, you know, I wanted to be able to do all that. And so if a young director is thinking along that path, then yeah, he needs, I I think that he is gonna need to go as assistant director in a larger school that's that has those top top groups performing that that type of literature and try to catch the rest later on. It's just a just a directional path, you know. I I don't know, Mike, what what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

I think you're exactly right. It it it depends on what their goal is as a director. Um, because if your goal is to get to that highest level of literature, then your best bet would be to go as an assistant at a larger school because in this just my opinion, um, but you are kind of tracked. You know, if you take a job at a 2A or 3A high school and you stay in that category for 10 years, very few 6A's are gonna look at you as a head band director. That's right. It's just it's just the way it is. I mean, some people would disagree with that, but uh the numbers kind of prove my point. The numbers prove me a point, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Let me let me jump in there again, though, just exactly what you said. Okay, I've had several 2A and 3A, 4A directors, okay, put me down for recommendations, okay? And so music supervisors will call me from the Metroplex or you know, San Antonio, Austin, Houston, uh, very, you know, very well established directors, Pete Hazard, Dick Clarky, uh, others. And mostly, most of the time, right out of their the first thing that they they they say, are they going to be able to handle the literature that's being performed at the high school? In other words, are they going to be able to teach the Hitamous Symphony? Are they going to know what the Husa, you know, are they going to know that sound? Do they know what the Granger sound is? Can they teach you know that? And, you know, quite frankly, until you do it, I I couldn't ask you that. You know, they don't they're not exposed to that. In the literature that they play, they're not exposed to that. So the only thing you fall back on is the talent of the teacher, of the director, or you know, and so exactly. When they say tracking, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, the unit kind of being tracked, there's no doubt about that at all. But I will say this that I think I personally think, too, that the the hardest job is teaching in small schools. It was much easier teaching in a large 4A that was about to become a 5A. They became a 5A right when I retired. That was a whole lot easier than teaching at a 1A or a 2A. Tremendously easier in every way. Um so it's uh it's you know, so be ready to work. And it's uh and it's good work and it's fulfilling work because you are the band man or the band woman, aren't you? You know what I mean? When you go to church and they're trying to buy a new piano, guess whose job it is? It's the bandwoman or the band man has to be on the committee. You know what I mean? But in a larger school, you can you can avoid all those people at the grocery store. In a small town, you are the person, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah, I mean, most of the time the for the directors in the larger schools don't even live in the district they teach in. Yeah, yeah. They can't they can't afford it. I mean it's yeah. Well I mean you sit there and look at some of the anyway, we can go on and on.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Now that brings up a really good point too, Michael, is the fact that you know, if you're band director salaries kind of fall in a range, you know, and and some directors obviously make more than other directors. But to be very blunt, you know, if you teach in a 1A or 2A school, you're kind of upper level middle class. You're you're kind of almost wealthy. In most 1A or 2A towns. If you're teaching, like you said, if you're teaching in a 6A school in the Metroplex, chances are you're not even living in the same school district because those people have their gardeners and they have their maids and they have their band directors.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

The um most of the small schools too, if you're gonna be the head director, you know, uh, or the only director, they offer housing, they offer stipends, you know, to to to get you there, to get you there to teach. Yeah. Um you know, it's it's I have not uh again when I I sit there and said that uh each one is unique as far as when Mike says the hardest that is I think you're gonna work as in a 1A school to a you know a small school. Um it just depends on on what you're working what you're working towards. Okay. I mean obviously in a small school, those beginners that you start, you're gonna have when you're seniors, okay? And they you can't blame anybody about how they play or about their attitude and band, about their sense of community, about their leadership, or anything else except you. And in the high you know, larger school though, you have to put a melting pot together. And it it's to me, it's it's just about as difficult as trying to start something from the beginning and following it all the way through saying this is the this is my result. You know, when you've got Bonham and Nimitz and I don't know what they call hood now still, but you know, you're taking three sets of kids and molding them together and trying to create a community at the high school to all be on the same goal, all be on the same path, all be at the same level of of love for one another, it's difficult. And uh it's not so difficult in the smaller schools because they've all been together since kindergarten. And uh so there it's just it just is a lot of uniqueness for all different all different classifications.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

You know, listed to you guys comes into play too is the fact that you know, if you're at a 5A school or a 6A school, a larger classification, um you're not daily worried about you know, four kids moving, and then all of a sudden you can't even do well at contest or um you know, your first year clarinet breaks her arm playing basketball, so therefore now you're that part's not gonna be played. Um, and even to the point of you don't know if that your band's gonna be there the next year. Yeah, you know, in a smaller school, it you're it's a little more it's it's it's more daunting and psychologically punishing as a teacher because you don't know what's gonna happen. Not Sundown's uh uh not I don't even consider that a small school. I mean, I know it is, Justin. I love, but that's that's a terrible example of a small school is Sundown, Texas. I don't know. You know, it's uh it's like it's it's amazing out there. I I'm thinking more, you know, the the towns that show up at contests with 25 kids in their band. They've had seven directors in you know, five years, you know, those kind of schools, and they're their school boards are just one pin stroke away from getting rid of the entire band program. And so that's tough coming in, you know. So that does kind of give it a different level of strangeness and uniqueness, you know, in a small school, you're always hanging on by your fingernails on the cliff, not knowing, are we gonna make it? Are we gonna have a man?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

You know, yeah. And that that gets me to another point that that you know is is uh and that's one of the things I felt I feel anyway, that when you say you're on an island and you're by yourself, you know, um, I don't think that that the directors take advantage as much as they should and could with the directors that are up here that have gone through it, the retirees, the even the even the high school directors that are still teaching, you know, just to bounce things off off of those directors, they kind of feel like they're out on that island and they're all by themselves, and there's no uh there's no recourse. Well, there is, and and I know TMEA's tried for a long time to do that mentoring program. And you know, I've gotten up at Region 16's meeting last two years and say, take advantage of all these guys that are that are up here, and and it just doesn't seem to be happening as much as it should. Um, and I don't and I'll and I don't know why. They don't need to be out on that island. You know, several of the programs around that you say that might be one step away from not having a program are not successful, whereas they could be with just a little bit of guidance. And um so it, you know, it it's it's it's there.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah, and there's no doubt it's it's you know, because we're of a certain age, and we grew up where when you wanted to get an answer to a question, you had to find somebody. Right. Right. Well, no, it's it's a matter of convenience now that uh, you know, uh a younger director uh probably doesn't feel that same, I don't know, pull to to have to reach out to somebody because I I can just chat GPT it or I can, you know, or I can just kind of figure it out, or I can get on the watch some YouTube and I can listen to some things. Um and that's great to have those resources, that technology, but man, it sure is hard to replace that idea of just being able to say, hey, this happened in band today. Well, what would you have done instead of punching that into a computer? Or we're just so used to our ATMs and our you know, like when's the last time you've actually written a check? You know what I mean? You know, everything's done electronically, you know, so we're we're kind of we're all used to that. We're all really used to that.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

You know, Mike, I'm gonna and Mike, you'll appreciate this too. Good friend Rocky Harris was in Big Spring for years and years and years, had great bands. It blew my mind to an extent that he'd been teaching 20 plus years, and he just felt like he needed uh he needed somebody to come and watch and see. He invited J.R. McIntyre to come once a week and said, I need the truth. Yeah. And anybody that knows J.R. McIntyre knows that the truth was well within his wheelhouse. Yeah. And as my friend Mike Lenny often says, people of our age, our mentors really didn't care that much about our feelings as much as giving you the truth. But he did that for a full semester of J.R. coming and listening and saying, Why are you doing this? I think if you did this, and he was still looking to be a better director that far into his career. And he's still teaching, he's still doing a great job, and he's kind of become that for other people. But back to your Mike Lenny and I say this all the time: if you're too scared to have somebody come look, offer recommendations, offer critique, you're probably not ever going to get better. Yeah. And I'm not sure the generation here enjoys to hear that, but that is kind of factual, yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

You're failing your students immensely if the only thing you have to offer is yourself.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

There's so much more to offer from other people from other people. And Mr. McIntyre, he may have been, yes, this is how you might try it this way. But when he worked with you and your group, now there are several shouting matches that he and I have been in over the years over things. Okay, but but if you could prove your point, it didn't matter how loud or it got, if you could prove your point. And when you didn't prove your point, you learned an awful lot because you were wrong and you were a better teacher for it. And he wouldn't start out either, just like I wouldn't, and Mike wouldn't, or somebody else going, boy, you know what, those clarinets just really are bad. You know, you just don't start out, you know. Here's the Gordon Ramsay approach. Yeah. You start you start with a solution, you know, because we've been there, you start with a solution, and either they want the solution or they don't. And uh, you know, I've I've been fortunate, and I know Mike's the same way over the years, that just about all the recommendations that I throw out, it doesn't go to a deaf ear. I just wish that it went to many more. And um I'm just a real firm believer in paying it back. I had so many people help me through my career. I was so fortunate, so many people, that I want to to pay it back, to pay it forward. And I think that uh that the more that that's that we're able to afford that to the younger directors and to the directors that think they're out there on an island, um, that the whole all all the kids benefit so much more. Programs benefit, communities benefit. Um, you know, you know, Van told me years ago, Van Raised now, you know, you're gonna learn something from everybody. You're gonna learn the right way to do it or the wrong way to do it, or you know, so you know, take it for what it take it for what it is. Um but I don't know how we got on this topic. I think I threw us there. But I just I think it's just so important that a young director, regardless of whether or not they teach at a small school or a large school, if they're not willing to invite people in and ask for opinions and where are we going? Am I going the right way? Am I not going the right way? You know, uh what can I do to help? Then I think that you're really hurting the kids and the program.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Right. We were talking about being out on an island, and I'm agreeing with you that I think sometimes we dig our own moat around the island. True. Instead of widening the circle of influence that we can create, we just hide in our own little island. So and I realize that geographically in West Texas, for those that don't know, you know, you're talking 40, 50 miles between towns. And so it feels islandish anyway. But we do live in a miraculous time where you can contact just about anybody at any given moment and ask for help.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Um through many different means. Oh, sure. Last spring I had seven bands sending me, sending me Google uh recordings every week with you know, I'd write email back what I thought they could improve on. During the fall, I think I had five groups that sent me their Friday night videos. You know, there it's like you said, if I had what we had now, good gosh. I I don't know how I'd use it. Uh, because I still want that one-on-one. I want Mr. McIntyre looking me in the eye, I want Mike Lunny looking me in the eye, going, your clarinets are really bad. But this how this is how we can fix them, you know, or Mr. McIntyre calling me up on a Thursday morning going, Are you ever going to fix the trumpet players out there on the field? You know, why don't you put your coffee down, walk across the, you know, walk across the field and you fix them. You know, it's it's you develop those relationships too, where there's a trust and a and a uh a moving forward that that I think that a lot of the young directors are really missing. And not all, but a lot are really missing because uh it's so unique. And I think a lot of it has to do with the technology too, the fact that, like Mike said, you can pick up anything now. If you want to hear the hymn of a symphony, I can play you four or five different recordings that are going to sound completely different than than anyone, and that's fine, that's what it's all about. But you have to decide which one do I like? Is it mine? Make it yours, you know, uh, and how do I make it mine? And and getting to that, how do I make it mine, is a tough thing. And I could I could do a whole two or three out podcasts on that concerning the metronome and tonal center and total tonal equity and tonal ensemble tonality and and what you're trying to achieve, but that's not that's not where we want to go with this.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

I was gonna say, all right, you two adjudicators, do you go all right? I'm not sure I agree with your decisions, but you played it well.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Yeah, oh yeah, well, all the time. Well, well, yeah, Michael, Michael tell you when we're sitting there judging. There's one box in there, it's just interpretation. You know, I don't agree with what you're doing, but if you do a conviction and you do it with a thought and they pull it off well, hey, that's your decision. Who am I to argue with right?

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Yeah. And there's a lot of times I've given that to directors at large and small schools that if you change something that seems a little more drastic in your program, you know, uh write that change in the score and put your signature next to it.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah. I did this on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Yeah. Yeah, that way the there are if the adjudicator has a problem, it's the arguments with you and not with something the band possibly did. And so whether they agree or not, you know, if if they know that was your intent, then you've got a lot better chance of doing well and of being interpreted well by the adjudicators.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Well, we we took a tangent there, but that's good. That's all right.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Kind of who we are, Mike. Um welcome to our randomness.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Well, no, I mean I think it's great. I think this is one of the reasons why we come in this podcast to all the young director, not young, everybody I I I talked to said, yeah, look at you know, back there in Ntins, you know, ask Mike. Now, Tarply asked Mike. You know, it's there's so much wealth there that if you want to hear about a topic or a subject, God, just get online and find it. And uh, you know, I uh Justin get Justin out in Sundown, Justin uh Maldon out in sundown is he's he's so funny because he'll I'm so opinionated. I'm I'm I guess I'm what yeah so he'll he'll ask me something and he'll just start laughing. Let's go. Well, what do you really think? You know? Quit sugarcoating it. Yeah, yeah. And but it's a relationship that we that we've worked on for the year, and it's the trust, and knowing that it's his program and he's gonna make that decision. But it's up to me to sit there and throw it out and say, here's what I think you can do, and here's what I think you can do better, and easier and more, you know, productive. And whether or not he incorporates or not, that's entirely up to him. And uh that's just you know how how it works.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

Let me I'm gonna try and tie some of these ends back together to a another thought process. One of the things that I was thinking of uh with you specifically when we were coming up with this this topic as a retire hire, as you go perhaps down classification or to another program. Number one, I think you have to make a mental adjustment of by the way, this isn't going to be my program. Program at this point. I'm going to help someone else, which is admirable and wonderful. But at the same time, did you find yourself uh I'm not talking about standards, but as far as expectations, did you have to kind of go, All right, I'm going here and I'm not going to play the Hindemith? I am going to help make better musicians, and here's what I have to offer in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Mike, you want to jump in first or me?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Uh sure. I I tell you what, it, but you know, anytime we do things, it's as per classification. You know, it's a even the tone quality of an ensemble is going to be different if it's a 5A, 6A band versus even a really good 2A band. It's still going to be different. So whenever I go and work a smaller classification, you're right for me, it's a, you know, you've got to kind of make that mental adjustment and be aware of the fact that these kids are not going to be able to produce the sound necessarily that you would get from a 5A or a 6A top varsted ensemble. And it's not a matter of the number of A's after the school's name. Usually it's a matter of the number of bands that are in the program. You know, if you've got three concert bands in a larger classification, then you've got those kids where you need them, where you can reach to them at their level and bring them all up, if they're the third band, the second band, or the first band. If you're teaching at a one-band school, then you've got a kid who might be an all-state clarinet, and then the last chair might not even be able to put the reed on their horn correctly right now. And that's a challenge. And that's it's a cool challenge, but it's a challenge. So I would say yes, you do. You have to kind of adjust for that. What do you think, Michael?

SPEAKER_00 45:46

No, I I I agree. Um, I'd like to expand on a little bit more, though. Okay. Because one of the things that especially going when Justin and I talked about me going to Sundown last summer, you know, I have no experience 1A2A3A, none. Okay. Uh before I went to Sundown, I didn't clinic any 1A2A3 bands. I didn't judge any 1A2A3A bands. So I told him, I said, if I come out here, I'm going to get out of the way. I'm not going to sit there. You've had success out there. You've won the state marching contest, you got straight ones, doing really good in what they call what is the OBS. What is the OPSMI performance series? Yeah. So you've done well in all that. So who am I to sit there and and interrupt that? However, there are certain things that I think that are basic to all band programs. I don't care if you've got one clarinet and seven trumpets. You know, you still have to try to develop an ensemble sound and a tonal center. And you still have to sit there and try to come up with the correct style for a march. You have to play in tune, you have to balance. You know, they're all all those things that are just, in my opinion, not negotiable. So when you when you how you go about getting there is a, I think, a different process in a small school as opposed to a large school. Uh, you know, how Justin gets to that with like you know, Mike said, you know, the last year clarinet player that's just happy to be there. And you know, the first two first two or three clients play then you put in front of them. So it it's a it's a balance there that that is so unique. But the expectations, like you said, uh, and and they have to be the same. They have to, you know, they have to that level has to be uh has to be non-negotiable. And you have to just keep, I think you have to keep fighting at it no matter what level you're on. Um I was never, I won't say never, very few times was I satisfied with the the total center that I was after at Permian. I always wanted sound like you know, define what define what your what your total center and total ensemble. What do you want sunlight? If you ask that to 90% of the directors out here, just out here, they can't tell you what they want to hear. Uh I can tell you what I want to hear. I want to hear the Chicago Symphony winds sitting there. Yeah, I want to hear that timbre. I want to hear that that buzz. I want to hear that tonal, that tonality. Uh whether it's 145-piece group or 14-15-piece group, I want to hear that that tone. So um I think that that uh that's a real challenge no matter what level you you you're at. But expectations, like you said, I think are across the board, whether it's 1A, 6A, are just unique with uh each each program. Not unique, it's it's it's the same. What do you want to hear and how are you going to get there?

SPEAKER_02 48:49

And I think too the the biggest difference, and I agree with you 100%. The biggest difference to me is like if I'm I did kind of 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A. Um, and then but if I go and work with a 6A band, it is much easier than working with a 1A band. Much easier. If I work with a 6A marching band, that's easy to work with them because they have uh more of a grounded sense of fundamentals because it's just a larger group generally. So I find that easier to work with. So, you know, it's it's just a matter of just figuring out what you need to do. Because I'll give you a great example of that. You mentioned about the non-negotiables, and I agree with you 100%. What happens is that as a band director, if you want to go the small school route, and that's something you want to do versus large school, to me, one of the biggest differences is the ability to pick your music correctly. Because when I was in a bigger school, when I was at a bigger school with my top wind ensemble, I would pick music that would have to make my weakest section better. Does it make sense? So I would not pick it just on the basis I've got really good trumpet, so I'm just gonna play all stuff that has really good trumpet parts, and I'm gonna try to hide all these other musicians. But in a small school, you'd best not do that. You know what I mean? Whatever your weakest section is, you better try to hide them as much as you can as you're still working with them. But whatever music you're picking for the spring concert or for the Christmas concert, you don't want to expose your weakest section and make them have to carry the load for the entire band. So I think that's something that you have to take into consideration if you're a band director looking at small school versus large school, regardless of what state you're in. You know, it doesn't matter. There's every state has small schools and big schools, you know. So you've got to, I think you have to be more meticulous with your music selection at a smaller school than I had to be, because I I could play in a larger school more what I wanted to play.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Yeah, and you know, the the my biggest phrase forever. I mean, you can't make bad music sound good. Yeah, uh, I'm sorry, but some of the some of the and I'm not gonna go in any composers, but it's so much more difficult on a smaller school scale of finding good music because it all sounds the same. A B A coda. And you know, all of the low brass, double the low reading. You you have so much, you're fighting against so much in order to try to make that sound good and sound in tune and sound totally centered and just a good timbre because it's just a homogeneous mess. And so when you can sit there at a small school, I feel, and find a holst or find something out along the lines of the older composers, not the newer composers, because a lot of those newer composers are still writing for a uh a genre that will you know take every bad band in the country by their piece of music, and it just sounds bad. And so I think if I had to say one thing to the small school directors, and it goes along the lines with a mic set, pick your music that's gonna it's gonna complement your group, but also that you can make sound good. Um because uh I I could go into about seven or eight composers that I would not program at all in 1A, 2A, 3A, and they all seem to be doing it, and they all just sound unique.

SPEAKER_03 52:45

So are you saying to an extent, I just want to make sure that I understand and I understand, don't go, don't get me wrong, but sometimes you're creating more obstacles for your musicians just by your music selection as opposed to uh a better choice of music, they get a chance to be better musicians. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Exactly. You know, why don't the small schools, you know, there are several pieces out there, they're so scared of soloists. Ah, what? They're fantastic. There's pieces out there on the 2A3A list that you know fantastic soloistic parts. You know, Granger, you make some Brazil Ponnie Doon, oh my lord, it's a four-part, four-part harmony written by Granger. You can't get much more sonority out of a group than than that piece. But when you sit there and you pick something that doubles the horns and alto saxophones, okay, they are so far apart as far as their intonation tendencies that you're constantly fighting a battle whenever you sit there and try to get them to play in tune. It's almost impossible. And when you sit there and you double the bare tone trombone, low reads, including berry sax, if you happen to have a berry sax, it's just a nightmare, tonally and intonation-wise. Then you double the flutes and clarinets because why? Oh, they need to play the melody together. No, they don't. You know, it it just is a security blanket of here, here it is. And if they just would delve into the literature just a little bit more, they find something so much more appealing, so much more, you know, so much more.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

So I'm just waiting to see if you have a response to that, Mike, if you're pretty much in agreement with yeah, there there definitely is issues with it.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

It's like the the grade one literature. Um it's it's hard to make it sound good because it's so simplistic in nature. And I know why they do it that way, because some bands only have 11 kids. So I understand that. But you know, to me, it's almost like you get to the the grade three, and that's when you finally get a few more harmonies and you get a few more differences in form as the music written and a little more uniqueness to it. And like uh Michael was saying, some soloist, you know, and I'll I'll put this out there too, is that if you're wanting to be in a small school environment, don't be afraid to change the music and note it on the score. If you have a really good flute and it's a clarinet solo, there's our let's say it was an Alto Sachs solo, but you have a really fantastic flute player, there I can't think of a adjudicator in the world that would knock you down because you because you changed it. You know, now if you're putting like bagpipes instead of a flute, you have just totally outlandish, you know. You know, let's put banjo here instead of bassoon, you know. So that's that's gonna be a little bit different issue. But I think sometimes uh I say that because I'll go out in clinic, especially smaller groups, and they'll be like, uh I'll say, Well, why don't we change this and do that? Well, we can do that. Yeah. Because they never experienced that in college, because you didn't have to experience that in college, because you had an oboe and a bassoon and you had a a good flute and a good you had good people on every instrument, you know, at your university. Um, so don't be afraid out there if you're a small school uh band director. It's okay to change things. There was one piece uh by Laplante, Prospect. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Um I I was a theory comp major, so uh hopefully I'm past the statute of limitations on this. Um, but I actually rewrote the last 32 measures completely. Yeah. I reinverted all the chords, took the trumpets out of the they were above the staff, put them all back down into the staff, changed all the voicings. I didn't change the chords, but I just I just made it to where the parts were being able to be played by my band. And not one judge either they didn't notice or they didn't mention it, but it sure sounded a whole lot better, you know, and it didn't bother me in the least because it still sounded musically appropriate, and I think the composer would have enjoyed hearing it. I thought I don't think they would have been insulted by what I did.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

This is this is gonna be an extreme, okay, because this this now goes back 44 years. Okay. But I was sitting in a clinic at Midwest, and uh I grew up with Harry Bijan and Dr. Ravelli. Um I grew up in Michigan, just outside of Detroit. So after after Dr. Ravelli's clinic, uh I went, he and I and I was doing Chester with my group and uh in Phoenix. So we went back to his room and and I played Alto Saxborne for four years in the Allstate group that he had in Michigan. And and so we got talking and all. He said, Have you ever heard my Hobart tapes? And I said, Hobart tapes. No, I've never heard your Hobart tapes. Well, I guess he I guess he carried them with him wherever he went. Pulled out a cassette player, okay, and Hobart, Indiana. That's where he stared at his teaching. And 22 kids in a little town, I think he said 110 people, they're all farmers. And they won the national wind band competition that year with 22 kids, and they sounded just incredible. This is 19, I think 1931. And you know, it can be done. It can be done. Granted, so many things change over the years. But one thing that doesn't change is your ear. And one thing that doesn't change is your musicality, and one thing that doesn't change are your expectations. And so if you carry those into your teaching and you make it fun and you make it interesting for the kids, and you and they buy in and they understand that, whoa, that that does sound cool. Okay, then I think you're really uh you're then you're teaching, then you're affecting lives, and you're you're you're you're building you're you're just building fantastic, well-rounded kids when they they can they can come to that on that understanding that no matter what level they're at, 1A, 2A, 6A doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Yeah, that uh I think that's a a perfect example of where I was trying to find a way to vocalize the fact that I think that there's a herd mentality to an extent, there's a peer pressure, to an extent, you're 1A, this is all you should really aspire to. You're 2A, this is really all you should. You might be able to do more than uh the class below you, but you shouldn't get your expectations too high. And I totally disagree. If you are being realistic assessing where your program is, it's a journey, it's not uh a one and done kind of situation, but you're creating musicians, it doesn't matter what class you're at. You can have good tone, you can have maybe you can't play some of the technical stuff because you don't have enough time or you know, private lesson teachers, whatever your reasoning may be, but you don't have to lower your expectations to create great kids and good music.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

The term that I can't I I I've heard that out of some we can't do that. I've heard so many directors, we can't do that. Okay, I you'll never hear me say we can't do that. Okay, it's how can we do it? Well can we do it? Yeah, how can we do it? You may come to a roadblock, but it's not, oh, we can't do that. Oh, we can't do that. Well, why have you tried? You know, so that gets back to what you were saying, your expectations, you know. Uh why can't you do that? You know, why you know what you can. You can. You're an intelligent, you can. You got a great year, you can. You work hard, you can. You know, um, so get any thoughts on that, Mike?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Yeah, my my rebuttal to that would be you it's not always you can. If you're at a a small 1A high school, you can, but it might be 10 years later. Well, that's what I'm saying. It's in the journey. Yeah, yeah. But I just want to kind of give some hope to those guys out there because just to be motivated, because uh uh my mantra is discipline over motivation. You know what I mean? But I can is like uh kind of pie in the sky kind of thing. Um, but you know, what you can only they're they're fighting so many more battles right now that we never dreamed of. We never dreamed of the battles they're fighting with CTE, with school finance, with uh with uh parents losing jobs, with I mean, it's just it's horrendous. It's uh the killing fields out there, you know what I mean? So it's uh it's a matter of what can you do right now to get just a little bit better. But to expect a an ensemble that if we just work hard enough right now that they can sound with an appropriate tone quality and tune, that might not happen for a couple years. You know, so I'm just trying to give some hope for those men and women who are out there in the small schools that don't I feel like we're setting them up to feel like a failure, you know, just you know, you you've given up or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

You know, it's it's a long process. It's a long process, it is a long process, but it also though, you know, to sit there and motivate somebody sure beats a kick in the pants most of the time. You know, I was motivated both ways through Dr. Rivelli and through through JR and through Larry Teal. He threw his ashtray at me one time in one of my lessons. You know, so there are different ways, and I and I've been motivated by just about every way you can think of. And the way that got me going more was you can do that. Here's how we can do it. You can do that. Like you said, it may not happen overnight, but if I sat there and said, I can't, or somebody says, You can't do that, okay. Mr. McIntyre had and I had one of the biggest drawdowns that I've ever had when he sat there and told me I couldn't do something. You can't play that piece of music. Oh, bye guy, I'm gonna play that piece of music. Okay, you know, it's it it just different motivations for different things. But I just have found that myself anyway, that you know, you can do it. When you start with I can't, that just automatically shuts the door. Like you said, it may happen 10 years from now or three years from now. And I don't think that the folks that nowadays are fighting any more pro any more problems than we fought back when we were in when we were beginning. We just didn't know that a lot of those problems existed more with what's going on with technology. I mean, I can sit there and go through the whole up, you know, oil up and down, oil up and down in in Odessa, you know, over 30 years, where I'd sit there and I'd have 240 kids enrolled in band and the oil drops to $10 a barrel, and then in the fall, I'm looking at 190. You know, uh it it you we can go on. I can look at at state funding where you know we we all of a sudden sent all of our oil funding down to Austin for the Robin Hood. You know, I can sit there and talk about transportation. Uh you know, we can go on and on about all of the different programs. The one thing we didn't have was all the testing that they've got to go through right now. But as far as problems in the school, problems that you solve day to day, I don't think are any different than what they were 30 years ago. And it just demands it depends on how much you want to sit there and go, I want to fix it. It can be fixed. How can we fix it? And where do we go? How can we fix it?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

So and and I would agree I want to make sure that I I say this when I say I can, it doesn't mean I can tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:53

But that's all I was saying. I agree with you guys. I'm just saying that the way it was being said, in my opinion, was like, you know, if if you're not making this happen this season, then you're a loser.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

But once you say I can't, well, that's what I intended. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

No, I know that's not what you intended. That's why I wanted to clarify it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:12

Right. Yeah.

unknown 1:05:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

So let's do this, Mike. Uh I'm talking about uh Mr. Watts. Kind of kind of uh Dr. Watts.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

Dr. Tim.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

In your opinion, the simple question is and where we started this whole conversation, was classifications moving up or down in your teaching experience? Is it realistically, uh, are kids fundamentally in it different? And is the job I mean, we've talked about the differences, we don't have to go back all the way through that. But if I'm if I'm want to encourage somebody that's retired and thinking about getting back into it, and or if we're talking to somebody that's just starting, uh You know, we talked about tracking and the only place they can get started is is a smaller uh place to be. How do we approach our job to not get locked in to one particular mindset or classification? I don't know if that's a broad of it context, but No, I don't I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

I think you're you're you're getting right on the topic of the whole podcast. I I think like Mike said, I think kids are kids. Experiences are different. Their experiences are different from classic Say to 1A. What they go through on a day-to-day basis is much different, but kids are kids. They still want to socialize together, they want to be part of one another, you know, they want they want that family experience. You know, they they want everything that a kid that a kid wants. I don't think it's any more difficult uh uh uh set of circumstances in uh whether or not you think the kids are different, if they if that's what you're looking at as far as a career. I think as far as a career, when you're looking at it as a 22-year-old, um it has everything to do with whether or not you want to be exposed, and your career path is being able to get Hebron High School's top grade, Cedar Park, Premiere High School. Um, you know, I could go on. Uh if that's the path that you want, then I I would not start in a small school. I'd find an assistance position in a in a larger metropolitan area. Not necessarily the golden triangle, you know, but a metropolitan area where you have that chance to go and you know, when when Charles Neil's gone, I have a chance to go in and sit in and go and actually work the Hinnemas Symphony as an assistant. You know, if you're looking at grassroots and becoming, I feel, a better band director, not necessarily musician, but a better band director and a better overall teacher. I think starting in small school is the way to go or middle school, because you're going to learn how to teach the instruments. You're gonna learn how you're gonna learn how that mind thinks at that young age. You're not just gonna have to, you know, you're not you're you're not gonna have to sit there and and say, you know, push in a little bit. You know, you're a little flat. Okay. Well, why are they flat? Well, you're lowering your tongue, okay? Your corners aren't frame on the clarinet, you know, flat chin. We go on and on. Um, so I think that a more worldly uh advice is small school or sit or middle school, assistant in middle school. Um, however, it's just like Mike said, you know, tracking happens. You know, I'll I'll give you an example. Okay, and Heath, I don't think Heath will mind me using his name. Heath Null. Okay, Heath grew up at Cooper, WT, taught for me at Bonham Junior High. His band up in Canyon, after two years, won the Fourier Outer Band. An incredible group of kids. He did a phenomenal job. He went to leave. And every director, every principal, every everyone asked me whether or not they thought coming from a Fourier program, he could handle a 6-A program, literature-wise, um, um, administratively wise, um, whether or not he could he could delegate those are the things that they're looking for in those programs that you don't necessarily get in a small school. So I think those two career paths are real important. And and the last thing I think is is where I come from is from the emotional side. I love the kids at Sundown and uh and that love the community, they're fantastic. But if I couldn't come out of each rehearsal every day with a musical and emotional experience of going, wow, I could I can't teach that. I can't I can't do that. Uh I needed that um, I needed that Granger, I needed that holst. I needed that myself individually, personally, in order to to teach. And so I think that you have to take that into account also, because very few programs are gonna, you know, Stan may have been able to do that at holiday, you know, back in the day. But uh not very many small schools are gonna have that type of that type of literature.

unknown 1:10:34

Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

Lunny?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

Yeah, and I I think too, with the the idea of the tracking, that uh we're all kind of comfortable with what we did in high school. That tracking, I think, starts all the way back to your freshman year. Because uh it tends to be the ones who are in the Metroplex bands tend to go to school somewhere and then they come back and work in the Metroplex. And the people like me who went to school in Iowa Park, Texas, tend to go back and then work in them in Abilene Wiley and Holiday and Electron Throckmorton. Um, I think it's just because maybe it's it's part of our persona or maybe how we see the world, you know. So it's uh it it's an interesting concept. And when we're talking about directors as they retire and then rehire, just be aware of the fact that uh if you go to a different classification, it's probably gonna be a little bit outside your comfort zone in a lot of things. But like Michael was saying, that you know, kids are still kids, you know, and the clarinet's still a clarinet. And I think with teenagers especially, they they fight that dichotomy of they want to be absolutely unique as an individual, but they don't want to be different from anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

That's that's a tough dilemma for teenagers, you know what I mean? So as a band director, we kind of have to somehow make them feel like, you know, rightfully so, that they are a unique individual, but they need to be like every other band student. They need to be part of the herd, you know. So that's I think it's a great life lesson. So it's just something to think about is if you're gonna be retiring as a band director or if you're just switching classifications. Some some people make that jump off the track. You know, they'll be at a 3A high school for 15 years and all of a sudden get a chance to be maybe at a 5A or 6A and do really well, or vice versa. I've known guys and ladies who've been at a 5A or 6A that the last part of their career, you know, they they thought they wanted to be at a certain place, or maybe their life dictated they needed to be at a certain place. You know, they had to be at a certain part of the state, and that was the job that was available, and they've enjoyed it, you know. So um just think about it carefully if you're a director out there, you know, if you want to switch classifications that take what you want from this podcast of the things that might be different, but rest assured that a lot of it is the same, you know, it may be a different set of problems sometimes day to day. But uh the the basic of uh this is how you teach a student how to play an instrument, it's the same process. It's the same process, just wrapped up with a different bow.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:10

Right. And the thing that I would add, if you'll allow, is that I think it's important to realize that each of us fits somewhere. And sometimes, uh, you know, without creating too much of a spiritual connotation to it, you just belong. Some guys they're just called to that level, that place at that time. And that's what that community needs, and that's what they need, and they find uh all the contentment and all of the uh they find their purpose, I guess if if you'll allow me to use that term. Yeah, no matter what classification that is, what town that is, or what anybody else thinks, when you fit, you fit. And when you're making people's young people's lives better and making better musicians, that that's noble.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:08

It doesn't matter how many A's, that's noble. Doesn't matter if it's 1A or 6A middle school, assistant middle school, if you as a director don't have the passion to teach, and the passion to motivate the kids, the passion, they see it, and you've got a dying program. You have to have that passion. And you succeed, you see it in the successful program. And uh at all levels.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:41

At all levels, yeah. All right. Thank you both for a great conversation on that. Um, I think both of you are I this is stating the obvious. If anybody has a question, since you both have experience up and down the line, uh you're not adverse to talking, to answering a question. People can send us a question at ask mic at tarplandmusic.com or reach out to you. I mean, you guys are pretty well known. A lot of people know how to get hold of you regardless. But thank you for your time. Thank you for your willingness to share experience. I just thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

Can I can I have a disclaimer here? Please. I come off, I come off pretty opinionated, but my heart is strong, and uh I uh um I I have not ever told anyone no that I'm not gonna help, you know. And I know Mike is the same way, and uh so you know may the force be with you, passion and you know just get out and teach.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:47

And I agree. Anything, any last words, Mr. Lenny? No, man. So thanks for being on the podcast, Mr. Watts. We appreciate you, sir. Thank you for asking me. I hope you asked me back. Thank you very much. We will, we will. Talk to everybody soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:02

All right, bye. Take care.